Going to the races while on sick leave.

CuriousCork said:
I agree. I would be disgusted if one of my employees carried on like the poster is doing. If I saw one of my employees carry on like that I would carry out a formal disciplinary process and ensure they got no pay rises going forward. He is letting his whole team, and himself/herself, down.
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How would that look to the WRC? The rest of your staff? An employer initiates a disciplinary procedure based on a member of staff not showing up to work while on certified leave? I'd advise a chat with your employment law representatives to brush on your responsibilities here before you end up in the headlines.

We've moved on from the days when employers owned their workforce, our legislation offers far greater protections to employees from unfair or abusive employers. It is unlikely that the doctor advised someone with a bacterial infection to cocoon at home.

We don't know the whole story of the OP's relationship with their employer, their track record, or how well or poorly that employer treats their staff. The majority of employees are reasonably committed to their work and pull their weight, likewise the majority of employers are fair and accept that their staff have lives outside of the workplace. An employer who has so little trust in their staff that the sight of them out of their bed while on sick leave stirs anger or a need for retribution should have a long hard look at themselves. Anyone who thinks they might be working for such an employer should get out now.
 
Johnno75 said:
No. There is always a risk of disciplinary process. The outcome however (if conducted fairly) would more than likely be in favour of the employee in this instance.
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Sorry, now there's a chance again, but in post #11 it's a non-runner? Employment law is very clear here, you absolutely cannot discipline an employee for not showing up to work while on medical leave. There are measures that allow you to request the employee attends a company appointed doctor for an independent assessment, but this only applies to long term leave. I've been through that process before with a staff member, and our HR and legal advisors were heavily involved to make sure everything we said or put in writing would pass scrutiny.


Johnno75 said:
What I didn’t suggest was that disciplinary process should be invoked (or introduced). Maybe I have misunderstood your point, but for clarity, as a boss, I fully understand the rights of employees and will always give the benefit of the doubt. That said, my own personal view might well be influenced by an employee who is unable to attend work based on their being certified sick on the one hand, and then sees fit to attend a crowded social event on the other.
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Yeah, I was outlining the legal position, what we can't account for is how an employer might informally, and without ever referencing seeing them at the races punish an employee for being out while on certified leave. That would be a much more difficult one for an employee to prove in the WRC.

We all have our suspicions about certain people not pulling their weight, but if you want really committed people working for you, it has to start with trust. A decision to punish an employee based on seeing them out while on leave one time is a red flag for poor management. That person might be putting in twice the effort of others who just show up on time all the time. Punish them and you're just left with the wasters. Put in the effort to carry out proper performance management and you'll know what each of them contribute, and you won't get upset if one of them shows up at the races while on leave because you'll know they get the job done. If they're not performing, you can base any disciplinary action on that alone, and not risk giving them a pay out over something like this.
 
If I was advising on this issue (and I have more than a passing knowledge in this area), my advice would be as follows, based on the facts we know.

Disciplinary process would likely result in the employee succeeding at that forum or any appellate forum.

That does not, in the real world, prevent an employer in commencing such a process or taking a dim view of the employee’s actions. Many disciplinary processes should never have commenced in the first place. But that’s the difference between the law and reality. It’s all well and good providing legal advice (I know all about that), but there are other considerations over and above the legal position to take into account. No point in simply telling the employee he’s legally in the right when he could be dragged through a process by a belligerent employer and/or have his/her life made uncomfortable in the workplace.

If the employee in this instance wants an easy life, they shouldn’t risk attending the races and/or the concert.
 
Leo said:
How would that look to the WRC?
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Believe me Leo, I would be subtle about it. I would have a Disciplinary hearing to send him/her a strong message about how their team was let down, how other team members had to do heir work which he was enjoying himself/herself at the races etc. I would then provide a verbal warning etc. I would not let it go to the WRC.
 
Leo said:
Not my intention, the same applies to all, anyone unfamiliar with employment legislation should be wary of offering advice on such matters.
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Should be a sign in most workplaces going on that logic. "Beware, this is a warning and may affect your employment status. An opinion is not tolerated in this workplace unless accompanied by legislation"
 
A persons life in the workplace on a daily basis can be made miserable/uncomfortable without any mention of disciplinary action taking place. I unfortunately have seen it happen. Chances for promotion, bonuses, etc can be subtlety blocked without anyone even knowing they are being "blocked". Guess it all depends on your boss and the type of person he/she is.

I personally wouldn't chance it if my job meant a lot to me and if it was my means for living. Why make life potentially difficult for yourself after such a good record in the place.
 
twofor1 said:
I am a lot better now, so I will be going to the evening meeting in Leopardstown on Thursday.

I appreciate it would not look great but I am not concerned about how things look any more, but could there be any basis for disciplinary proceedings if my employer knew I was at the races while on certified and paid sick leave ?
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It's worth revisiting the original question.

He does not care about his career prospects any more.

Could there be disiplinary proceedings? Legal opinion seems to be that there can't be.

Brendan
 
CuriousCork said:
Believe me Leo, I would be subtle about it. I would have a Disciplinary hearing to send him/her a strong message about how their team was let down, how other team members had to do heir work which he was enjoying himself/herself at the races etc. I would then provide a verbal warning etc. I would not let it go to the WRC.
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Like the similar question, what grounds would you initiate the disciplinary hearing on? If it's not turning up for work while on certified sick leave, you're guaranteed to lose that case should the employee choose to take it to the WRC. The only way you could stop it going to the WRC is by offering them a settlement in excess of what they would get there.

I'm very glad I don't work for you.
 
T McGibney said:
There is more than employment legislation involved here though as comments from @Johnno75 and others make clear.
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Absolutely, as I've said. I'm focusing on the opinions of some that this warrants a formal disciplinary process and advising any such move wwould be very foolish.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
It's worth revisiting the original question.

He does not care about his career prospects any more.

Could there be disiplinary proceedings? Legal opinion seems to be that there can't be.

Brendan
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I didn't read it that he didn't care about his career prospects. He said he did not care what it looked like.

I work in HR and if a manager came to me with this, it wouldn't go any further. The OP has stated he hasn't had sick leave for over 3 years.
 
becky said:
I didn't read it that he didn't care about his career prospects. He said he did not care what it looked like.
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He is clearly at the end of his career and doesn't care about it any more.

What else does "not care what it looks like" mean?

That he can drink pints with his boss at the Imelda May gig while absent from work and that his boss won't care either?
 
www.michelmores.com

Employee dismissed for drinking in pub whilst on sick leave wins unfair dismissal claim

The (misleading) revelation that "visiting the pub while on sick leave is not a sackable offence" has been doing the rounds of the press recently. The recent case of Kane v. Debmat Surfacing Limited ET/2501862/2020 is the cause of this bold statement, in which a Judge has ruled that an employee...
www.michelmores.com www.michelmores.com

A UK case, but interesting nonetheless.

The issue seemed to be the lack of process and procedures rather than sacking the guy for being dishonest.
 
Clamball said:
No you are perfectly fine. The certificate covers work only. You do not need to be at home in bed to qualify for a sick certificate.

Your doctor, I am guessing, is worried about a slow recovery if you return to work too soon. Even if you go to the races you will probably be wiped out afterwards but you can rest. Usually on antibiotics you start to feel really well after 24/48 hours but infections are nasty and you need time to rest and recuperate.

The issue with work is if you go back to work they expect you to be 100%, and do 100%, and they expect you to come again the next day and do it all over again. You have nothing to hide by being off work sick so go to the races.

If your employer says, Hey 2for1, you were out enjoying yourself Thursday night but couldn’t be bothered to come to work Thursday or Friday so I am going to dock you 2 days pay;

all you do is say “My doctor certified me as unfit for work for 2 weeks which is why I did not attend. I am perfectly happy to attend a company doctor to allow them to determine my fitness for work, and I give permission for the company doctor to get records of my recent illness form my GP. “

If they do follow up tell the company doctor you details, let them contact your GP, who will say “2for1 had x infection. I prescribed y treatment. In my professional opinion 2for1 was unfit for work for 2 weeks”. The company doctor will then report back to your company and say “I agree with doc A that 2for1 had an illness that prevented him from attending work until same date as Doc A. The company doctor will not reveal to your company the nature of the illness or the treatment and for a simple thing like a nasty infection will not disagree with your GP.

If they refuse to go down that route you work for a not nice company. Remember no one at work should ask you what you what the nature of your illness was.
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The trouble is that when you’re explaining, you’re losing (even in the unlikely event that you’re asked).

The traditional view would be that if you’re fit for an evening at the races, you’re fit for work. That’s the view your boss would take and one that would be likely to influence his/her relationship with you in the future, although not necessarily explicitly.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
He is clearly at the end of his career and doesn't care about it any more.

What else does "not care what it looks like" mean?

That he can drink pints with his boss at the Imelda May gig while absent from work and that his boss won't care either?
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I read it as, he doesn't care about optics.

In this case I don't think the OP has any case to answer.

The 2 cases I mentioned earlier. One was an employee who took sick leave every year to go to the races, the other was a someone who was on sickleave but appeared in the local paper winning a sports event. Both were disciplined.
 
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