november16
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Going to the races while on sick leave.
- Thread starter twofor1
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november16
Registered User
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curious and curiouser subtle bullying maybe harassment also possibly illegal
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Not good enough OP. We are emotionally invested now.You need to make sure everyone in the office knows you went so we can see how theyd react...
Been following this thread with interest. ESP as a employer. Though was trying to think from an employee POV. Personally if it was me I would have mailed Thursday afternoon saying I was feeling a lot better and prepared to return to work the following day but wasn’t sure where I stood with being signed off and would be virtually impossible to get an appt for a ‘fit to return’ before then
Then totally covered!
From an employer POV I’d be disappointed I think but do understand that it wasn’t during working hours. I presume had it if been a daytime event then a total no no and employees could be pulled up. But maybe I’m wrong?
Then totally covered!
From an employer POV I’d be disappointed I think but do understand that it wasn’t during working hours. I presume had it if been a daytime event then a total no no and employees could be pulled up. But maybe I’m wrong?
He could wear an Imelda May pirates eyepatch to get the chat going at the watercooler.
Your contributions are as good as the next contributor’s Paul. No-one has a monopoly on knowledge here. The legal experts can give good legal advice, for example, but it’s not just about the law. Many other factors, as has been outlined on this thread, come into play in any given situation. Even the experts are not all in agreement on this one. The OP here may well have found himself involved in a disciplinary process, or may not. Who knows? It’s never black and white. The world is full of grey. Keep on contributing. Even if it matters not a jot to you, that just adds to your objectivity.
Paul O Mahoney
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I know I had the dis- pleasure of letting people go for "behaviour that wasn't in keeping with corporate standards " and the argument went to court, the corporate prevailed as the contract of employment was written in a very US way with onus on the employee to comply with the employment contract.( that was 20 + years ago but in this century)
Of course the lawyers for those who lost their jobs said " it happened outside working hours " I often wonder what happened to those people.
And having a job is the dream of billions and to have one with full medical pay and then treat it a hindrance to your private life, is simply foreign to me .
I'm not suggesting that a person should be a slave either but having a job should instill a sense of responsibility.
Thanks for the kind words, Regards
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Sorry to hear. Maybe you could get a cert for depression.
What was the crowd like? Were you worried about contracting Covid?
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As a manager, I've been in this position before, in one case, a person off sick but spotted by a colleague working on a market stall and in another case, a person off sick but dumb enough to post their holiday phots on social media and again, mentioned to me in passing.
On the first case, it was a straight-forward enough disciplinary process which led to a final warning, as there was some mitigation. The 2nd one was more complex as depending on the sick cert (and bear in mind, a sick cert does not have to contain the reason a person is off, "sick" is legally sufficient) we felt after taking legal advice that any disciplinary action would fail. However, it more or less ended the person's career with us as the story got around the grapevine quite quickly, her colleagues were so cheesed off and she left after a few months.
On the first case, it was a straight-forward enough disciplinary process which led to a final warning, as there was some mitigation. The 2nd one was more complex as depending on the sick cert (and bear in mind, a sick cert does not have to contain the reason a person is off, "sick" is legally sufficient) we felt after taking legal advice that any disciplinary action would fail. However, it more or less ended the person's career with us as the story got around the grapevine quite quickly, her colleagues were so cheesed off and she left after a few months.
Yeah, a cert saying they are not fit to work does not mean they have to remain at home during working hours.
If you put the effort into recruitment and managing probation, and treat your staff fairly, you are far less likely to have issues with absenteeism and the abuse or medical certs to get out of working. Anyone who manages to get pas that and is abusing medical certs is likely to be falling short of performance expectations across the board and so you should address any disciplinary process about their ongoing failure rather than any one off event where they didn't show up while a medical cert was in effect.
Brendan Burgess
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In theory, you are correct.
In practice, it's quite hard for get rid of someone for underperformance. It's hard to measure and is often subjective.
Showing up at the races while on a sick cert is factual. It might not be a reason for firing someone, but it would be easier than firing them for underperformance.
But as others have pointed out - this is not about the law. This is about career progression.
Brendan
Agree with this. You only need to read Labour court decisions to read how hard it is to dismiss somebody for underperformance. Chances are for the minority of underperformers who don't improve with a PIP or genuine supportive performance management help, it's an attitude problem and these are the same kind of individuals who can be very litigious. Disciplinary processes are tricky and any breakdown in the process or unfairness can undermine the whole thing, on top of many roles being hard to quantify performance in a fully objective and transparent way that can't be in any way challenged.
In fairness it works both ways. There are lots of companies/ organisations with cultures that stink to high heaven and lots of bullying or pressurising managers, particularly in private sector. In fact I'd say for both phenomena in my experience this is rife. Work can be unpleasant and theres no monopoly on good or bad behaviour.
Oh completely but I also think there is a difference between performance related issues and unacceptable behaviour (bullying & harassment etc). The latter is just never acceptable and that's that imo - it should be a given.
Managers can also get a hard time from employees too and get bullied by getting constantly blamed or criticised for things way beyond their control and staff refusing to do normal tasks to block progress and make the manager look bad to their own manager. Managers are also just as liable to underperform as well. I am really making the point in general terms and it applies to any employee (management or otherwise) - dismissal for underperformance is incredibly difficult.
I've done it, it is difficult and time-consuming, but worth the effort. That was reinforced the first time I was through the process when others on the team opened up about being sick of carrying dead weight.
I's factual, but you absolutely can not discipline someone for not showing up at work while on medical leave.
We had a case where someone posted pictures on social media after completing a park run while on sick leave, HR wanted to action on that and sought legal advice, they were told not to touch it, and not to even mention that we were aware of it in case any future disciplinary procedure might be seen as tainted by it.
Brendan Burgess
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Brendan Burgess
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If you bring it up, they can use that to support a claim of being victimised in any future disciplinary action.