Key Post Electric Vehicles

[Zenith63]

The battery will wear out. Warranties are around 100,000Km or 8 to 10 years and the replacement cost is €5000+.

The Nissan Leaf has done the EV movement a bit of a disservice with the battery degradation the earlier (2010/2011) models suffered, especially when used in hot climates. They've slowly improved things, to the point that my 5 year old Leaf still has 90% of its battery capacity - the Irish climate is perfect for them. But this is just the Leaf, you don't see this level of degradation with the other models out there - ultimately the ones with decent batteries (Samsung/LG/Tesla) that are actively cooled. Plenty of data out there to back this up, for example this survey showing an average of 90% capacity in Teslas after 200,000km https://www.engadget.com/2018/04/16/tesla-battery-packs-live-longer/. In-short, for your average driver this degradation is insignificant and unnoticeable.

EVs certainly suffered from significant depreciation in the past, because there was some fear around them (causing lack of demand) and they were expensive to buy. But since the diesel debacle and the push for move EVs on the road, the newer models are holding up as well if not better than petrol/diesel cars, and older models have actually seen an increase in their secondhand value (paid €10k for mine, worth €12 a year later).

I really could not recommend people go out and test drive an EV, chat to others who own them and get honest hands-on feedback, there's a lot of inaccurate information knocking around, most of it in the 'old wive's tale' category.


To be clear though, if you drive a huge amount then EV is not for you yet. If you own an apartment so cannot get a home charger or do not have a work charger, an EV is not for you yet. If you want to save money by moving to EV you will need to look at an older model, new EVs are still expensive enough (great spec'd cars, but if you're in penny pinching mode then things like self driving are probably not required ).

 

[RichInSpirit]

I was reading about the Fiat Centoventi which was a concept car at the Geneva motor show. It has from 1 to 5 removable battery packs which give 5 different ranges, and 5 different prices.
About Fiat Panda size.
https://www.fiat.com/fiat-concept-centoventi

 

[Zenith63]

Due to the battery packs, EVs are heavy, a base Leaf is more than 20% heavier than the base model Qashqai or 25% heavier than a Ford Focus. This means more energy in crash situations, and battery pack damage is quite expensive to repair.

Can you elaborate on this a bit, not quite sure what you're driving at? In-terms of safety, you want to be in the heavier car in a crash if you have to be in one. In-terms of repairs, this is what insurance is for; FWIW my insurance went down moving to an EV.

 

[Leo]

I'll try dig out proof but I read that EV sales in Ireland for the first 3 months of 2019 have already exceeded the 12 months total for 2018. If that's true and continues, a lot of investment will be required in order to keep the charging network ahead of demand.

470% increase in Q1, albeit from a very low base, EVs accounted for just 4% of falling car sales.

As mentioned earlier, free public charging is to end as dictated by the Energy Regulator. That order has slowed down investment in public infrastructure, so the large scale investment required will be paid for by users of the system.

 

[lledlledlled]

Can you elaborate on this a bit, not quite sure what you're driving at? In-terms of safety, you want to be in the heavier car in a crash if you have to be in one. In-terms of repairs, this is what insurance is for; FWIW my insurance went down moving to an EV.

That's interesting your Insurance went down. I was reading about some very high EV premiums due to the likelihood of expensive battery replacement in the event of a crash.

 

[Leo]

Can you elaborate on this a bit, not quite sure what you're driving at? In-terms of safety, you want to be in the heavier car in a crash if you have to be in one. In-terms of repairs, this is what insurance is for; FWIW my insurance went down moving to an EV.

Most EVs will still be lighter than trucks, agricultural machinery, trees, walls, etc., so you can't win them all. Requirements for crumple zones and crash safety means cars can't be built like Volvos of old anymore where heavier always won. Cars getting heavier means significantly more energy to dissipate.

A heavier EV hitting a another car will cause more damage than a non-EV of similar size. So as we see more incidents involving EVs, insurance costs may well rise, though better crash mitigation systems may help. EVs do come with wider rubber & beefier braking systems that similar sized cars to help compensate. A whole side industry has been born in the US repairing cells in crashed EVs due to very high dealer prices.

 

[Leo]

They've slowly improved things, to the point that my 5 year old Leaf still has 90% of its battery capacity - the Irish climate is perfect for them.

Interesting study here from NZ, I've read related commentary suggesting charging the larger capacity batteries only to 80% and depleting to close to zero before charging will prolong battery life over a 100%-20% cycle.

 

[Zenith63]

2. I'm hoping to charge in work 75% of the time and use the public charge points 25%. I may be naive but going to see if I can get away with not installing a charger at home. It'll be a company vehicle so will be difficult to claim back the electricity costs from by domestic bill.

If you have the space for a charger at home why not get one installed and use the grant? It won't be around for ever, and as everybody moves to EVs, having it on your house will be a value-add. The grant is €600, depending on what is required wiring wise, you'd be looking at something like €1k to get a charger and have it installed by a qualified electrician. If you can do some of the work yourself (making routes for the cables, physically mounting the charger etc.) you can probably get the whole thing in under the grant.

 

[galway_blow_in]

If you have the space for a charger at home why not get one installed and use the grant? It won't be around for ever, and as everybody moves to EVs, having it on your house will be a value-add. The grant is €600, depending on what is required wiring wise, you'd be looking at something like €1k to get a charger and have it installed by a qualified electrician. If you can do some of the work yourself (making routes for the cables, physically mounting the charger etc.) you can probably get the whole thing in under the grant.

Seems like a no brainer to have a charge facility at home,however if you need to drive from Cork to Dublin, you will likely need to recharge somewhere?

 

[lledlledlled]

If you have the space for a charger at home why not get one installed and use the grant? It won't be around for ever, and as everybody moves to EVs, having it on your house will be a value-add. The grant is €600, depending on what is required wiring wise, you'd be looking at something like €1k to get a charger and have it installed by a qualified electrician. If you can do some of the work yourself (making routes for the cables, physically mounting the charger etc.) you can probably get the whole thing in under the grant.

I was a sparks in a former life so I should be able to manage the install myself rather than go through the grant route.

I'm hoping to remove the temptation to charge at home, as it would cost me money in electricity bills.
Hoping to limit the charging to work, where employer pays electricity bill!

If I have a once off emergency where I need to charge at home, I understand EVs come with a 'granny cable' which plugs into a regular domestic socket. You'd need to make sure nothing else is powered from this circuit, as the EV charging will use a lot of current. I'd need to see the output figures before I'd be happy that it's safe to do this.

 

[lledlledlled]

Seems like a no brainer to have a charge facility at home,however if you need to drive from Cork to Dublin, you will likely need to recharge somewhere?

Cork to Dublin is approx 170 miles. That's no sweat for a fully charged Kona. She'll do 270 miles on a single charge.
I think this car is a game changer for the affordable EV sector. Assume the other manufacturers will follow suit.

 

[losttheplot]

To fully charge a Kona with a granny cable could take about 30 hrs. Not something you'd want to rely on for an emergency. Home charger would be an essential. An early adapter told me he used to charge at work all the time as he was the only one. Now there's too many and difficult to get near a charger at work.

 

[Zenith63]

I was a sparks in a former life so I should be able to manage the install myself rather than go through the grant route.

Ah similar myself, but still worth it if you know somebody in the industry who can do certs. I bought the charger for €450, cabled and fitted it myself, electrician came and made the final connection, tested and did a cert for something like €150. Got the €600 grant - totally free home charger.

I'm hoping to remove the temptation to charge at home, as it would cost me money in electricity bills. Hoping to limit the charging to work, where employer pays electricity bill!

Makes sense. Though depending on the mileage you're doing, keep in-mind you could we swapping a €200/month petrol bill for say €40-50 on your electricity bill. Do 90% of your charging at work and that odd charge at home will not even be noticeable on you bill, but very handy at the weekend if you need to drive a good bit and want to charge on Saturday evening.

I understand EVs come with a 'granny cable' which plugs into a regular domestic socket. You'd need to make sure nothing else is powered from this circuit, as the EV charging will use a lot of current. I'd need to see the output figures before I'd be happy that it's safe to do this.

Yep they do and they tend to draw around 10A, so no major deal for a modern standard house socket. A full home charger for reference will tend to do 32A.

 

[newtothis]

I did a lot of research on this last year as I was looking at purchasing a new car. My previous car was a Prius, so I'd some limited experience. Much as I was taken with a BMW i3 - it feels like a generation beyond literally anything else on the market - I ended up with a plug-in hybrid, mainly because I've no prospect of either home or work-place charging.

Things I've learned:

- forget about milk floats or fork-lifts if that's your idea of electric powered vehicles: EVs are better in virtually every respect than their petrol or diesel equivalents. Quieter, smoother and quicker.

- if you don’t have the capability of home charging or guaranteed work-place charging, do not even consider it: the public charging network is nowhere near extensive or reliable enough to use exclusively

- it’s getting harder to find a vacant charging point: they cannot be relied on (very frustrating too when non-electric cars park in the spots, as apparently they are allowed to even when the road is marked)

- running costs are much lower than diesel or petrol, most obviously in the fuel cost, but also servicing

- range anxiety is overstated. If you charge at home overnight, don’t forget you start each day full with a range of (say) 300kms. How many days do you drive more than that? I appreciate some will say “often” to that, in which case it’s not for you, but for the majority it’s perfectly feasible

- be careful with some of the misinformation that’s put out there. For sure, batteries do degrade over time, but not catastrophically so

- the benefit-in-kind tax break is extremely generous, if you are in a position to make use of it. It was nearly enough for me to ignore the lack of home charging, though thankfully I wasn’t tempted in the end

- up until last year, the selection of EVs was very limited, so unless you happened to fall into one of the segments served by them, you were out of luck. This is changing rapidly, though for now a lot of the models are still relatively high end (Audi, Jaguar etc.). Far more choices are on the way

To sum up:

If you are in the sweet spot of having the capability of home charging (i.e. a driveway), can make use of the benefit-in-kind tax break, make long journeys of more than 300km or so infrequently and can afford an EV that meets your requirements (cost, size, style etc.) it’s something of a no-brainer. If you’re missing one or more of those attributes, it becomes a less obvious though still very attractive choice, though if you don’t have home charging don’t even think of it.

I hope that helps.

 

[Frank]

The new kia Niro looks interesting with the big warranty sees to be early 30's for a standard battery then looks like an extra 5 k for a bigger battery.

A bit more elbow rook than the leaf.

 

[lledlledlled]

The new kia Niro looks interesting with the big warranty sees to be early 30's for a standard battery then looks like an extra 5 k for a bigger battery.

A bit more elbow rook than the leaf.

Fair play Frank, I hadn't heard of the Niro. From a quick check online, it looks like a slightly roomier version of the Kona.
Gets a super review on WhatCar too.
I'll try test drive one this week.

 

[Zenith63]

Tesla Model 3 is available to order in Ireland as of this morning. Also easygo.ie opened a four bay charging station at Kinnegad on the M4/M6 today.

 

[galway_blow_in]

Test drove both the kia Nero and the hyundai kona yesterday, both very nice but preferred the kia, only problem is neither have a toe bar which is a must for me

 

[PaddyBloggit]

only problem is neither have a toe bar which is a must for me

but would an EV be strong enough and have enough battery to pull a trailer?

I'd be all for buying an EV but I need a tow bar for pulling a double axle trailer and a horse box... hence the 3.2 ltr jeep.

I've just purchased a new 1.5 diesel and only because I want to have enough power to pull a trailer with. Anything heavy, I'll use the jeep.

Maybe, by the time I retire, ther might be something out there in the EV line that will pull a trailer and have ample charging points all over the place.

The product is evolving, but not fast enough, unfortunately.

 

[galway_blow_in]

but would an EV be strong enough and have enough battery to pull a trailer?

I'd be all for buying an EV but I need a tow bar for pulling a double axle trailer and a horse box... hence the 3.2 ltr jeep.

I've just purchased a new 1.5 diesel and only because I want to have enough power to pull a trailer with. Anything heavy, I'll use the jeep.

Maybe, by the time I retire, ther might be something out there in the EV line that will pull a trailer and hav ample charging points all over the place.

The product is evolving, but not fast enough, unfortunately.

I just need a toe bar to haul two bins out to the end of our road, we live on a cul de sac and the main road is a km