Key Post Electric Vehicles

[Blackrock1]

The LEAF is at the extreme end of the cost but Leo's link shows people being charged €30,000 for a replacement.
As far as I'm aware it is not possible to replace a battery with a higher spec one, although improved manufacturing processes can improve battery life. A 2017 Leaf will cost you around €15k. Would you buy that car knowing that in 5 years the battery could cost you more than you paid for it?

Even the shortest time spent googling will show multiple options, in ireland, where you can get your leaf battery replaced with a superior battery pack for 6-7.5k.

 

[Purple]

Even the shortest time spent googling will show multiple options, in ireland, where you can get your leaf battery replaced with a superior battery pack for 6-7.5k.

Links?
Would you spend €15k on a car where there was a likelihood that you'd have to spend half the value of the car in 3 years replacing the battery?

 

[DublinHead54]

It's a pretty competitive market right now, and with talk of government supports on purchasing having to reduced in the coming years, the manufacturers will be forced to drop prices to stimulate sales.

VW are also stating the new battery designs will be 50% cheaper to produce from the start.

There was an article a few months back in the FT (paywall) but search Lex in depth: a solid case for the next generation of batteries. It was a very interesting article outlining limitations of current batterieis and potential next generation technology.

In the article it indicated that improvements to safety and energy density without increasing the cost of batteries (lithium ion) have reached technical limits resulting in an inbuilt price floor for longer range cars. So we might not see the natural drop in price rising from competition due to the costs to produce. There is a new battery technology being researched (solid state batteries), but mass production is years away and the current estimated costs is 100k per battery. It seems there is a technical limit to the range and lifetime of lithium-ions batteries i.e. faster charging reduces lifetime etc.

However, it does seem that EVs in Ireland could be cheaper. A friend in the US just bought a Tesla Model 3 with a base price of ~30k Eur (35k USD), but the same model base price to purchase in Ireland is 48K EUR. What drives the cost difference?

 

[Purple]

There was an article a few months back in the FT (paywall) but search Lex in depth: a solid case for the next generation of batteries. It was a very interesting article outlining limitations of current batterieis and potential next generation technology.

That's been discussed already in this thread. VW say it'll be 2024 and cost less than the current technology.

 

[PGF2016]

The battery life will be the big issue. At the moment the car is effectively worthless once the battery is out of warranty.
Given that the carbon footprint during production is significantly higher than IC cars their green credentials only come to the fore at they get into high total mileage.

Batteries are not worthless as most work perfectly well until long after they are out of warranty.

And batteries are living longer than the cars that originally housed them and are being re-purposed for other uses.

I've read that after ~70k KM an EV becomes cleaner than an ICE. Do you consider that high mileage?

Electric cars may be even cleaner than makers claim

Study suggesting EVs need 77,000km on clock to be ‘greener’ than conventional car debunked

www.irishtimes.com

I think the FUD over batteries has been proven to be just that - FUD.

Links?
Would you spend €15k on a car where there was a likelihood that you'd have to spend half the value of the car in 3 years replacing the battery?

There's a likelihood that I could drop dead if I get out of bed tomorrow. What is the actual likelihood of battery failure? They have proven far more reliable than originally thought.

 

[Blackrock1]

Links?
Would you spend €15k on a car where there was a likelihood that you'd have to spend half the value of the car in 3 years replacing the battery?

as i said before a leaf holds no interest for me, but again ill ask where are you getting these battery failure rates from?

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[DublinHead54]

I have seen a lot of the VW ID3/4 around blackrock since christmas. They are lovely!

What about charging infrastructure? Anecdotally I was in Wexford over the summer and petrol station had 2 chargers, as I sat eating a sandwich the chargers were both in use, but more importantly I saw more coming in an attempting to use.

So when making a circular trip the range is fine because you know you can charge at home, but if going on vacation in Ireland etc they can become inconvenient without the proper charging infrastructure.

 

[Purple]

I have seen a lot of the VW ID3/4 around blackrock since christmas. They are lovely!

What about charging infrastructure? Anecdotally I was in Wexford over the summer and petrol station had 2 chargers, as I sat eating a sandwich the chargers were both in use, but more importantly I saw more coming in an attempting to use.

So when making a circular trip the range is fine because you know you can charge at home, but if going on vacation in Ireland etc they can become inconvenient without the proper charging infrastructure.

We are still at an early stage of this technology. I'm waiting for at least 5 years before I buy an EV.
I do low mileage so the most environmentally friendly thing I can do it hold onto the car I have.

 

[Zenith63]

I have seen a lot of the VW ID3/4 around blackrock since christmas. They are lovely!

What about charging infrastructure? Anecdotally I was in Wexford over the summer and petrol station had 2 chargers, as I sat eating a sandwich the chargers were both in use, but more importantly I saw more coming in an attempting to use.

So when making a circular trip the range is fine because you know you can charge at home, but if going on vacation in Ireland etc they can become inconvenient without the proper charging infrastructure.

The charging is improving but has always suffered from having good dispersion but poor density, so yes you come across cases where there is only one charger but a couple of people looking to use it. It's rare, but it happens. If you need to do lots of long journeys, just don't buy an EV yet. If you need to do one a month or something you'll be totally fine.

The trick I use is as you're driving down the motorway keep an eye on the chargers you're approaching, if you see one unused even a little early pop in and get the charge there instead. Rather than waiting until you're down to 5% and have to take the next charger you arrive to, even if it's busy.

 

[DublinHead54]

We are still at an early stage of this technology. I'm waiting for at least 5 years before I buy an EV.
I do low mileage so the most environmentally friendly thing I can do it hold onto the car I have.

I bought a PHEV hybrid in January, it gets about 50k straight electric, it is ok. It was my first ever brand new car, I bought it partially because they had them in stock and the petrol equivalents were 4/5months wait.

The solid state batteries appear to be a significant evolution in technology rather than an incremental improvement. However, I think they will be more expensive in the early years than the lithium equivalent and we might see manufactures sell solid state versions as well as lithium versions with the solid states being more expensive. I don't think there will just be a straight cut over.

 

[arbitron]

Given that the carbon footprint during production is significantly higher than IC cars their green credentials only come to the fore at they get into high total mileage. Most of that carbon footprint comes from the manufacture of the battery so these new ones may be a game changer in that respect as well.

The initial carbon/environmental footprint of a new EV car driving off the corecourt is higher than its ICE equivalent but that quickly fades.

With our current electricity fuel mix, an EV overtakes its ICE equivalent by about 24,000km - roughly 2 years of driving.

Even if the EV only charges from the dirtiest sources (e.g. 100% coal) it is still better for the environment after about 5 years.

ICE vehicles cannot become significantly greener. On the other hand, as electricity production decarbonises, all EVs become cleaner.

 

[Blackrock1]

I have seen a lot of the VW ID3/4 around blackrock since christmas. They are lovely!

What about charging infrastructure? Anecdotally I was in Wexford over the summer and petrol station had 2 chargers, as I sat eating a sandwich the chargers were both in use, but more importantly I saw more coming in an attempting to use.

So when making a circular trip the range is fine because you know you can charge at home, but if going on vacation in Ireland etc they can become inconvenient without the proper charging infrastructure.

the vast majority of EV users charge at home, if you cannot install a home charger i wouldnt recommend one tbh.

For the occasional trip where you need to charge en route generally using a fast charger (which tend to be along the main motorways) is the most efficient way to do it.

 

[Zenith63]

We are still at an early stage of this technology. I'm waiting for at least 5 years before I buy an EV.
I do low mileage so the most environmentally friendly thing I can do it hold onto the car I have.

It sounds like that's the right decision for you.

For others considering it, EVs are a superior drive in virtually every way compared to their petrol/diesel equivalents, including slower depreciation. The only way you'd regret the decision is if you pay too much for the car (same risk buying a Porsche or any expensive (to you) petrol/diesel), you cannot charge at home or you need to do regular long journeys. Replacing batteries is not something you need to worry about in moderate climates like ours, it's just not a factor.

 

[Purple]

It sounds like that's the right decision for you.

For others considering it, EVs are a superior drive in virtually every way compared to their petrol/diesel equivalents, including slower depreciation. The only way you'd regret the decision is if you pay too much for the car (same risk buying a Porsche or any expensive (to you) petrol/diesel), you cannot charge at home or you need to do regular long journeys. Replacing batteries is not something you need to worry about in moderate climates like ours, it's just not a factor.

The one thing I don't like is that EV's are just not as engaging to drive as IC cars. Maybe it's the weight or the lack of noise or the lack of a gearbox but I just don't like driving them.
For acceleration they are fantastic but they seem a bit sterile or something. They don't excite me.

 

[Blackrock1]

The one thing I don't like is that EV's are just not as engaging to drive as IC cars. Maybe it's the weight or the lack of noise or the lack of a gearbox but I just don't like driving them.
For acceleration they are fantastic but they seem a bit sterile or something. They don't excite me.

what car are you driving that is exciting you?

im asking as a current EV driver who has owned a few BMW M3s and other 'sports' cars in the past.

 

[Purple]

what car are you driving that is exciting you?

im asking as a current EV driver who has owned a few BMW M3s and other 'sports' cars in the past.

I've driven lots of cars.

 

[Blackrock1]

I've driven lots of cars.

No doubt but that's not what I asked.

 

[DublinHead54]

what car are you driving that is exciting you?

im asking as a current EV driver who has owned a few BMW M3s and other 'sports' cars in the past.

What EV did you get? I've a hybrid and have a home charger. My observation on the charging infrastructure was really just observational that I've seen a lot more full EVs on the road but not an increase in charging infrastructure outside of motorway service stations.

Thats the only inconvenience I see currently for me personally. As I've a young family and spend time visiting family who currently don't have home chargers!

Disappointingly the IT had an article on the budget yesterday suggesting EVs will significantly increase in price under new tax measures. This seems the reverse of incentivising people to move to EVs. I'm still not sure why a Tesla here is so much more than in the US, is it just tax?


The price of the average new car will rise by €1,294 – while all-electric cars like the Volkswagen ID.3 Family will jump by about €4,100 – under proposed Budget 2021 tax changes.

 

[Purple]

No doubt but that's not what I asked.

I currently drive a BMW 520.
The fastest car I ever drove was a DB9.
The most fun car I ever drove was a MX5.
My first car was a Honda Civic (I didn't deliver pizza or drugs, it was before that was a thing).
My favourite colour is green.
I've no idea what my star sign is.
I like romantic walks in the woods.

 

[Blackrock1]

I currently drive a BMW 520.
The fastest car I ever drove was a DB9.
The most fun car I ever drove was a MX5.
My first car was a Honda Civic (I didn't deliver pizza or drugs, it was before that was a thing).
My favourite colour is green.
I've no idea what my star sign is.
I like romantic walks in the woods.

so you currently drive a 520 bmw (im assuming its a 4 pot diesel you have), thats all i asked, i have driven a few, nice cars, my dad has one, but if thats what you are driving denouncing ev's as not as engaging or sterile isnt credible imo.