Deaths on the road

[lynchtp]

As is the mistake of many other drivers in this country, legal doesn't necessarily mean safe.

If the pothole had been filled corectly, or swept clean after "fixing" or sign posted then it could be considered driver error.
But to look immediatley at a driver who is traveling at the legal speed, in a modern car, which has been proven road worthy, on an inadequate road.


I put forth the idea of further testing once a person has their full license when it needs to be renewed it should not just be a form, how many qualified drivers would fail the test if asked to do it on the spot.

Randon test questions at garda check points.
"I see you have you tax in order sir, but what it the stopping distance for a car travelling at 50Km/h on a wet road."

O.K. bad question as the rules of the road dont include anything about Km/h

 

[Humpback]

But to look immediatley at a driver who is traveling at the legal speed, in a modern car, which has been proven road worthy, on an inadequate road.

And if there was an injured pedestrian spreadeagled across the middle of the road around that very same corner, after tripping in the pothole and breaking their ankle?

Expecting the unexpected. That's another driving skill that's missing from many Irish drivers as well.

 

[Humpback]

I would like to reinforce the comments I've specifically made here, and others have inferred from other comments, regarding personal responsibility and its impact on the number and severity of accidents in this country.

Everyone who went out on the roads this weekend knew two things.

Firstly, given past experiences, approximately a dozen people were likely to lose their lives on the roads over the 4 days of Easter. By extrapolation, they should have realised that there was a small chance that they could be one of those people to die. Secondly, also given past experiences, drivers on most roads this weekend knew that they would not be challenged or even observed by a member of the Garda Siochana, given our lack of road traffic law enforcement.

Therefore, drivers over the weekend would have known that most likely they were going to get away with traffic offences because of the lack of enforcement, and that there was a small chance that such dangerous driving would get them, their family, or other road users killed.

Yet 15 or so people were killed at the weekend. We have the full facts, yet we still drive in a way that kills so many people over a short period of time.

 

[WarrenBuffet]

Totally untrue. I drove down home to Waterford from Dublin on Friday afternoon. I went through one Garda checkpoint and saw two other sets of Gardai on my travels.

On the way up last night I saw two sets of Gardai.

Probably a bit of a coincidence that i passed so many but ridiculous to say drivers were not being observed by Gardai

 

[CCOVICH]

I drove from Dublin to Cavan on Sunday on the N3 and then back via Slane on the M1 and didn't pass one checkpoint. It's a fair comment in my view, I always feel that I am as likely not to see a checkpoint/speed trap as I am whenever I get into the car. Anyway, unless anyone has stats to back up their views on this, it will remain a matter of opinion.

Regardless, I would pretty much agree with what RDJ says about personal responsibility, but at the same time, there also has to be an expectation of getting caught otherwise behaviour will continue as it is currently.

There was an article by one of the columnists in CBG recently that advocates zero tolerance for drink driving, i.e. driving whilst having consumed any alcohol whatsoever should be illegal. I think this makes sense as removes any room for subjective judgement, i.e. it doesn't matter what your tolerance is for alochol, your body mass, when you last ate etc., if you drink, you can't drive.

 

[shnaek]

As is the mistake of many other drivers in this country, legal doesn't necessarily mean safe.

And legal doesn't necessarily mean unsafe either. My point was that a lot of focus is on blaming drivers - fair enough - but lets also blame the poor state of our roads, and as a previous poster mentioned, the amount of new cars on those roads year on year. It helps to concentrate on facts when trying to solve a problem. Concentrating on one fact while discarding others is not of much use. Nor debating semantics and missing the gist of a point being made.

BTW I travelled myself on Saturday and Monday and the Gardai were all over the place, even on some of the narrow roads I travelled.

 

[ubiquitous]

I drove from Dublin to Cavan on Sunday on the N3 and then back via Slane on the M1 and didn't pass one checkpoint. It's a fair comment in my view, I always feel that I am as likely not to see a checkpoint/speed trap as I am whenever I get into the car.

In some places, for example Lisgrey near Virginia on the N3, the Gardai regularly position themselves in an obscured position along the roadside in order to detect unsuspecting speeding motorists.

There was an article by one of the columnists in CBG recently that advocates zero tolerance for drink driving, i.e. driving whilst having consumed any alcohol whatsoever should be illegal. I think this makes sense as removes any room for subjective judgement, i.e. it doesn't matter what your tolerance is for alochol, your body mass, when you last ate etc., if you drink, you can't drive.

This doesn't make practical sense as the natural biological processes of the human body occasionally generate alcohol - in some cases enough to show up small levels of alcohol content in blood or urine samples, even when taken from non-drinkers. These effects can sometimes be dramatically accentuated by the consumption of certain types of medication, along with mouthwashes and other products.

 

[Humpback]

This doesn't make practical sense as the natural biological processes of the human body occasionally generate alcohol - in some cases enough to show up small levels of alcohol content in blood or urine samples, even when taken from non-drinkers.

It makes perfect practical sense to me. If you consume alcohol, and then drive, then you should be arrested and face the full rigors of the law.

If you don't consume alcohol, then fine. Presumably the difference between levels of naturally produced alcohol (and it's composition) can be differentiated from alcohol consumed in an alcoholic beverage.

 

[CCOVICH]

Fair comments by ubiquitous, who is probably better informed on the subject than most by the sounds of it, but I would have thought that this phenomenon would be captured by a standard margin of error?

Or could the limit be lowered such that it would be lower than consuming a glass of wine, pint of lager etc, but would allow for mouthwash, medication and naturally occuring substances?

 

[CCOVICH]

In some places, for example Lisgrey near Virginia on the N3, the Gardai regularly position themselves in an obscured position along the roadside in order to detect unsuspecting speeding motorists.

Maybe, but I didn't see anyone stopped or see any other evidence of activity. That doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't any activity, but surely there should be more of a visible presence than (it appears to me) currently exists?

 

[ubiquitous]

Fair comments by ubiquitous, who is probably better informed on the subject than most by the sounds of it, but I would have thought that this phenomenon would be captured by a standard margin of error?

Or could the limit be lowered such that it would be lower than consuming a glass of wine, pint of lager etc, but would allow for mouthwash, medication and naturally occuring substances?

I actually don't really know that much technical detail about the subject but the head of either the National Safety Council or one of the big insurance companies explained this phenomenon in some detail on George Hook's radio show a number of weeks back.

My own understanding is that one of the drawbacks of reducing blood/breath alcohol limits for drivers below the current levels is the increased risks that someone who is 100% clean and sober could innocently exceed the limit. I don't know if this is an issue in countries where there is a 50mg limit as opposed to the current 80g limit that applies here. Some countries in Eastern Europe have or recently had zero or 20mg limits, however their levels of road safety enforcement and accident/death rates are so appalling that I doubt if there would be much wisdom in following their example.

In any event, I remain unconvinced that there is any meaningful link between driving having consumed a glass of wine, a single "half one" or a pint of beer and the risk of a serious road accident or fatality. Its a different matter entirely when the driver has consumed significant multiples of these volumes.

 

[ubiquitous]

Maybe, but I didn't see anyone stopped or see any other evidence of activity. That doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't any activity, but surely there should be more of a visible presence than (it appears to me) currently exists?

I think the philosophy of the Gardai on the N3 at Lisgrey (a long stretch of wide, straight road) is that if motorists can see them, then they will evade detection by slowing down once they see the squad car.

For the record, the Gardai have done the same in the past at Carnaross and booked people for speeding within the 30mph/50kph zone, who were not even aware of any Garda presence in the vicinity at the time.

 

[dodo]

I think they where Irish which is also very sad, but the point the poles accounted for 1/3 of the deaths over the last few days but only make up a small % of popualation I dont just mean poles but people who come from countrys where they drive on right hand side,I think the government need to put signs up reminding people of this, I have driven abroad many times and it is easy if you are not on the ball to forget to be in the correct side of country you are driving in ,lucky I do be on the ball, but if you read the list of people who have died this year there are alot who where not born here, They live and work here like us and the government should be aware and make driving on our roads safer for everyone and if putting up signs to remind people of the fact that we drive on the left side so be it as long as people are safer on the roads less deaths thats all I care about,

And the 9 other people who died on the roads at the weekend????

 

[LIVERLIPS]

I seen checkpoints all weekend on N2 on joining the new road and the nile mile stone roundabout and they where out in Duleek aswell. Accidents mainly caused by speed and drink driving. The crash a few weeks ago in Howth where the driver crashed into a cycylist and both died. He was a 23 year old drink driving his car obviously went over the other side of the road. But people will never say he was drink driving they said he had a blackout. He was at a wedding i was at in sutton and he only lived in howth yet he drove home. I feel sorry for the family of the poor man he killed. And stats show that a high percentage of polish,lativans etc are drink driving as look at times of most of these accidents. I would hate to be out and on the dry one night and to come across one these drivers i would not have a chance. They are driving on our roads with cars that are not roadworthy(no brake lights, broken lights) no tax or insurance if one of them hit you, you will be paying for repairs yourselve. So NCT does not apply to them. They overtake dangerously and do not indicate. Surely if our goverment can pay for the kids in poland etc they can pay to tax, insure and nct there cars.

 

[CCOVICH]

In any event, I remain unconvinced that there is any meaningful link between driving having consumed a glass of wine, a single "half one" or a pint of beer and the risk of a serious road accident or fatality. Its a different matter entirely when the driver has consumed significant multiples of these volumes.

My point isn't that a glass of wine impairs your judgement (although it may very well do so), but the limit as it stands means different volumes for different people at different times, and so that subjectivity should be removed.

 

[CCOVICH]

I think they where Irish which is also very sad, but the point the poles accounted for 1/3 of the deaths over the last few days but only make up a small % of popualation I dont just mean poles but people who come from countrys where they drive on right hand side,I think the government need to put signs up reminding people of this, I have driven abroad many times and it is easy if you are not on the ball to forget to be in the correct side of country you are driving in ,lucky I do be on the ball, but if you read the list of people who have died this year there are alot who where not born here, They live and work here like us and the government should be aware and make driving on our roads safer for everyone and if putting up signs to remind people of the fact that we drive on the left side so be it as long as people are safer on the roads less deaths thats all I care about,

So it's that easy? We put up signs reminding people to drive on the right side of the road, i.e. the left, and that would solve the problem?

Sure. Just like the signs reminding people of the speed limit are successful at keeping people from driving at crazy speeds. Just like red lights stop people from driving through them. Just like the TV ads and billboards telling people not to drink and drive mean that they don't. etc.

It's naive in the extreme to believe that signs would solve the 'problem' to which you are referring. If so many foreigners are dying on the roads here because they 'forget' what side of the road they are meant to be on, it is more than likely to be because they are drunk, not that they are just off the boat and don't have a clue what they are doing. I'm sure they are just as 'on the ball' as you are likely to be when it comes to driving on the correct side of the road.

Poles accounted for 1/3 of deaths this weekend. But how many over the past year? 2 years? 3 years?

 

[Humpback]

My point was that a lot of focus is on blaming drivers

The road safety advert that I saw on RTE1 last night had the quote, "90% of all road accidents are caused by driver error". Maybe that's the reason for focusing on blaming drivers?

 

[Humpback]

The crash a few weeks ago in Howth where the driver crashed into a cycylist and both died. He was a 23 year old drink driving his car obviously went over the other side of the road. But people will never say he was drink driving they said he had a blackout.

Please show us the evidence of this statement.

And stats show that a high percentage of polish,lativans etc are drink driving as look at times of most of these accidents. I would hate to be out and on the dry one night and to come across one these drivers i would not have a chance.

Please quote, or direct us to, these stats. I would be interested to see the percentage of drivers who are drink driving that are immigrants versus the number of Irish drivers that do exactly the same thing.

They are driving on our roads with cars that are not roadworthy(no brake lights, broken lights) no tax or insurance if one of them hit you, you will be paying for repairs yourselve. So NCT does not apply to them.

Again, please direct us to where it says that immigrants are not obliged to undergo the NCT test as well as the rest of us. I've looked at www.nct.ie, and can only see [broken link removed]on eligibility for NCT. Nothing related to nationality.

All in all, I think the tone of the comments presented by LIVERLIPS here are going in a very dangerous direction, as well as being very poorly informed. The implication of the comments as I see it is that our road deaths should be attributed to foreigners - as if we were never killing ourselves on the roads before the Celtic Tiger and immigration.

 

[Leo]

My point isn't that a glass of wine impairs your judgement (although it may very well do so), but the limit as it stands means different volumes for different people at different times, and so that subjectivity should be removed.

It woud be good to eliminate the gray area, but it's the quantity of alcohol in the bloodstream that affects reaction times, etc., so I think it makes sense to use this as the measure. Another aspect of this is that this measure is easily prooven in court. If you get into the "I ony had the one" arguments, many drink drivers may get away with it. The courts need something that's black and white.

Also, quotes like the one earlier where "90% of all road accidents are caused by driver error" are incorect. This may have been incorrectly interpreted by the reporter, but driver error is a factor in 90% of accidents, not the cause. Same thing when people say speed is the cause of x% of accidents, again untrue. There are always a number of contributory factors in any accident.

And, while I'm at it, can anything be done about over tired drivers on our roads? Top Gear report a couple of years back demonstrated this was more dangerous than driving a number of times over the alcohol limit.

 

[dodo]

If these signs saved one life then it would be worth putting them up dont knock something that might save a life , we in Ireand also still have a drink(drunk) drive problem, I have been to Sweden and Finland alot and if someone over there knew there own brother was about to drink and drive if they could not stop them they would have no issue ringing the police, here most people would just let them get into the car not worth the hassel attitude, education is the key, it starts when you learn to drive, over there the only person who can teach you to drive is a proper driving instructor with 2 sets of pedals, our government should go and see how the Sweds do it think about they have worst weather conditions than us popuation around 8million and have less deaths on the roads in a year than we do, we all want safer roads so lets try work together rather than put peoples ideas down nothing else seem to be working , try be positive in life free advice

So it's that easy? We put up signs reminding people to drive on the right side of the road, i.e. the left, and that would solve the problem?

Sure. Just like the signs reminding people of the speed limit are successful at keeping people from driving at crazy speeds. Just like red lights stop people from driving through them. Just like the TV ads and billboards telling people not to drink and drive mean that they don't. etc.

It's naive in the extreme to believe that signs would solve the 'problem' to which you are referring. If so many foreigners are dying on the roads here because they 'forget' what side of the road they are meant to be on, it is more than likely to be because they are drunk, not that they are just off the boat and don't have a clue what they are doing. I'm sure they are just as 'on the ball' as you are likely to be when it comes to driving on the correct side of the road.

Poles accounted for 1/3 of deaths this weekend. But how many over the past year? 2 years? 3 years?