Church offerings

Re: all good threads come to an end.

Personally, I'd have thought that the Church has far bigger issues to worry about than the placing of mementoes
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Why?
Islam requires its followers to be meticulous about everything from how they wash or cook right through to how they are to be buried. So why not the Catholic Church too? In fact, compared to Islam the Catholic version of Christianity is a doddle to follow. Consider yourself lucky!

I don't see what all the fuss is about.
If you don't like the RC church then BIN the letter requesting a donation.
I assume you also stay away from church - as going would be hypocritical. So the issue of church collections is of no consequence to you either since you won't be there.
If you are as fastidious as you claim about your dislike of the church...then don't get married there and don't ask to be buried by them either. That would be hypocritical too.
If you have kids then certainly they are entitled to an education...but why should it be catholic? Find somewhere else.
If your kid wasn't baptised then he/she cannot receive holy communion, so don't send them to 1st holy communion ceremonies.

I'm not the greatest Catholic in Ireland, but I can see the value in religion...ANY religion. Without it society soon boils down to a free-for-all of greed and consumerism...just look at what Christmas has become!

By the way...do you 'celebrate' the consumerist festival of christmas? Does it have any meaning beyond getting pissed, stuffing your face, and an orgy of spending? Is it a valid and worthwhile experience for you and your child when you diligently expunge all religious significance from it?

There's a lot of hypocrisy evident at this time of year...dontcha think?
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

I'm not the greatest Catholic in Ireland, but I can see the value in religion...ANY religion. Without it society soon boils down to a free-for-all of greed and consumerism...just look at what Christmas has become!

Not necessarily. Religion is not a prerequisite for having a value system, moral framework or even a sense of spirituality (for those who are into that sort of thing) which informs one's life, actions/behaviour, attitude towards and treatment of others etc. In some cases casual adherence, not based on any real/strong underlying faith or belief, to any particular religious system can insulate people from actively engaging with such issues. Some might also argue that certain religious practices and beliefs abrogates some people of personal responsibility for their beliefs, actions etc. which isn't necessarily a good thing...
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

I'm not the greatest Catholic in Ireland, but I can see the value in religion...ANY religion. Without it society soon boils down to a free-for-all of greed and consumerism...just look at what Christmas has become!
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The implication is that it is religion that gives a person their moral backbone, and without religion we are all tissues on the breeze. Living for the moment, selfish, lacking direction, lacking compasion, in short lacking basic christian values.

That's quite offensive to those of us who would consider ourselves to be good people, without any belief in a particular religion. Those of us who know that so called Christian Values go back much further than Christianity and are actually quite basic rules on how humans should behave humanely towards each other.

I can honestly say that the most "christian" people I've known have been those who have no belief in religion.

Furthermore, of those who consider themselves Catholic, they often have to disregard Catholic pronouncements in order to square their Catholicism with their Christianity.

"Yeah, I'm a catholic, but I don't believe in the Churches attitude towards, Gays."

At the end of the day there are good people, bad people, and in between people, and religion has damn all to do with what you'll end up as.

-Rd
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

Hi Tharggy - Can I suggest you ring around 5 local national schools and check out their admissions policy (and the specifically the impact of not being baptised on the chances of admission for your child) before you repost.
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

Rainyday, why would you want to send your child to a Catholic school if not baptised as Catholic?

As to the other comments...its all very well for intelligent, well educated (in catholic schools?), middle class, middle aged, generally decent, law abiding -internet debating - liberal thinkers to declare 'I'm a good person and I don't need religion'.
You are in the minority in most societies.

The people who would best profit from a stiff dose of religion are often NONE of the above.
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

You are missing my point. The vast majority of schools are Catholic schools, like it or not. If I want to send my child to a non-Catholic school today, I can;

- Choose the CofI school down the road (which has a superb reputation btw) where those of no religion and Catholics come at the bottom of their priority list when selecting new pupils. Priorities are given to teachers families, siblings of existing pupils and CofI families
- Choose the nearest Educate Together school which is much further away than the local schools and add another car into the rush hour traffic. The ET school is about 3 miles away, or 40-60 minutes in rush hour traffic.

Like it or not, the Churches have the education system sewn up.
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

Rainyday, the Churches have the education system sewn up because they built, and for a good while financed, a good many of the schools.
I take your point that there is little alternative for a lot of people and for primary school children during communion and confirmation years a good chunk of their time will be spent on their own if they are not RC.
The debate about the influence of Christianity on our moral value system is a much bigger debate and all I would like to add is that it could be argued that we are a liberal secular society because the Catholic Church was so repressive it forced a reformation and subsequent age of enlightenment.
In other words we are where we are due to a rejection of religion, not because of it's teachings. Personally I think it's a very complicated and involved issue and stances in black and white on either side of the argument ignore this.
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

Can I suggest you ring around 5 local national schools and check out their admissions policy (and the specifically the impact of not being baptised on the chances of admission for your child) before you repost.
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"Catholic" primary schools have no legal basis for refusing admission on the basis of religion. There are plenty of non-catholic and for that matter, non-Caucasian, non-European, children attending "Catholic" primary schools.

Most of the staff are lay staff at these schools nowadays, and the parents have more say than they used to.

I personally would not baptise a child, I would let him/her decide on his/her faith when at an age to appreciate it.

I think that it is better to show a good example, be a good Christian (as the posters say, pun intended) rather than a good Catholic. It is all to easy to pay lip-service to Christianity by showing up for mass once a week, not believe in many of the outdated views and doctrines of Vatican II and the current Pope, and generally doing nothing else in your life to "treat others as you would have them treat you".

I also don't pay parish dues. I figure I pay enough in taxes already - just look at the disgraceful deal the govt made on the cost of the child abuse scandals - Irish institutions pay 128M, the taxpayers, the rest, with no upper limit!
 
Final thought on the original topic - you can have my local church, I don't need it. :)
 
To answer the very original question.

Next time your at Mass, ask the person next to you.
If you don't go to mass, then don't worry about it.

-Rd
 
Re: my 2 cents

Those people who don't contribute to the Church are the first to use the Church for their weddings, baptisms, communions, confirmations and funerals. Hypocrites.
 
Re: my 2 cents

Those people who don't contribute to the Church are the first to use the Church for their weddings, baptisms, communions, confirmations and funerals. Hypocrites.
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If you don't baptise your child, that gets you out of the baptism, communion and confirmation.

Priests get paid for weddings.

Which leaves funerals. You can invoice me. :)
 
Re: my 2 cents

Priests get paid for weddings.
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How much would you have to pay a solicitor or doctor for a day of their time on site (even with dinner thrown in)?
I would guess it would be more than the €150 or so that a priest is paid. I tend to agree with BlueBlaa on this and I think that's a first!
 
Re: my 2 cents

As a matter of interest Mr.Bond, at what age do you think your child is equipped to make the decision about religion?

If his/her 8 year old classmates are all excited about their upcoming 1st Holy Communion don't you think your child might start feeling left out? That he/she is missing something?

Certainly peer pressure is no good reason for a child to suddenly decide to 'become a Catholic', but don't you think thats exactly what a young child is likely to want to do in these circumstances?
Is that what you call an educated decision?

I don't have small kids. Maybe I'm out of touch with what happens nowadays. Do some people actually tell the school that their child is not to be given RE or allowed to take part in other social events which centre on a church service? Christmas Carols banned? Taking part in Nativity play banned?

I think its fairly 'high and mighty' of any parent to foist this kind of puritanism on their child. I actually don't believe it happens - because it is patently gross. Please tell me you have no young children Mr.Bond. I pity them.
 
Re: my 2 cents

As a matter of interest Mr.Bond, at what age do you think your child is equipped to make the decision about religion?

Children can learn about religion in general in school, as part of general social studies, ethics etc. I meant the choice of a particular religion to ascribe to is not appropriate for a young child, IMHO.

If his/her 8 year old classmates are all excited about their upcoming 1st Holy Communion don't you think your child might start feeling left out? That he/she is missing something?

Depends. Not if the child is in a non-denominational school. And even if they are, as I said above, not everyone on this rock is actually Catholic.

Certainly peer pressure is no good reason for a child to suddenly decide to 'become a Catholic', but don't you think thats exactly what a young child is likely to want to do in these circumstances?
Is that what you call an educated decision?

1st Holy Communion is about the parents in Ireland as far as I can see, and about developing consumerism in kids - anyone who doesn't get over a grand is second rate. I don't subscribe to or wish to perpetuate this practice.

I don't have small kids. Maybe I'm out of touch with what happens nowadays. Do some people actually tell the school that their child is not to be given RE or allowed to take part in other social events which centre on a church service? Christmas Carols banned? Taking part in Nativity play banned?

As I say, not everyone in Ireland is Catholic, or even Christian.
Children can learn about religion and Ethics, and can certainly take part in plays etc, Christmas carols, etc. etc.
It is just the sacraments that I would object to, or rather would object to the school ramming its selectively-chosen ethos down the throat of my children.

I think its fairly 'high and mighty' of any parent to foist this kind of puritanism on their child. I actually don't believe it happens - because it is patently gross.
Attitudes towards religion, race, society etc. are all implicitly passed onto children, and it is the actual working day-to-day living attitudes that matter, not the view you like to think you subscribe to. Kids can see through that.

All very well pretending to be good Christians when we promote racism etc. to the next generation by our behaviour.
 
Re: my 2 cents

Priests get paid for weddings.

Purple>
How much would you have to pay a solicitor or doctor for a day of their time on site (even with dinner thrown in)?
I would guess it would be more than the €150 or so that a priest is paid. I tend to agree with BlueBlaa on this and I think that's a first!
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Was being a bit tongue-in-cheek here, to be honest.

If I go to church for an occasion, I contribute to the collections that are passed around.

I give to charity.

I pay my taxes to the govt and they choose to pass on a rather generous subsidy to the Church for their past discretions.

I just don't see the need to pay Easter or Xmas dues.
 
Re: my 2 cents

Mr.Bond, my comments were obviously in reference solely to Catholics - because they form the largest part of the community.

Of course there are other religious/non religious groups on this rock...but I can't see how this thread applies to them.
Why would a protestant parent, with a child in a non-denominational or protestant school be asked to contribute to a catholic school collection?
Its just not an issue.

Lets stick with the matter as it affects catholics...or lapsed ones

Now, would you like to address my comments again within those parameters?
As a matter of interest Mr.Bond, at what age do you think your child is equipped to make the decision about religion?

If his/her 8 year old classmates are all excited about their upcoming 1st Holy Communion don't you think your child might start feeling left out? That he/she is missing something?

Certainly peer pressure is no good reason for a child to suddenly decide to 'become a Catholic', but don't you think thats exactly what a young child is likely to want to do in these circumstances?
Is that what you call an educated decision?

I don't have small kids. Maybe I'm out of touch with what happens nowadays. Do some people actually tell the school that their child is not to be given RE or allowed to take part in other social events which centre on a church service? Christmas Carols banned? Taking part in Nativity play banned?

I think its fairly 'high and mighty' of any parent to foist this kind of puritanism on their child. I actually don't believe it happens - because it is patently gross. Please tell me you have no young children Mr.Bond. I pity them.
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Re: all good threads come to an end.

As to the other comments...its all very well for intelligent, well educated (in catholic schools?), middle class, middle aged, generally decent, law abiding -internet debating - liberal thinkers to declare 'I'm a good person and I don't need religion'.

Why is this "all very well"?

The people who would best profit from a stiff dose of religion are often NONE of the above.

It seems to betray a strange, although hardly original, mindset and attitude to religion to use the metaphor of medicine (or is it disease?). In any case one could also easily adopt the equally facile argument that the combination of characteristics antithetical to the ones above and religion isn't necessarily a recipe for positive results. Specific examples are easy to find in the world in which we live...

Rainyday, why would you want to send your child to a Catholic school if not baptised as Catholic?

Obviously Rainyday can answer for himself but part of the problem, at least as I see it and as outlined much earlier in this discussion, is that there is often no alternative (to sending one's children to the local, often Catholic, school) given that there is no comprehensive state run school system (ideally secular in my view even if I may be in a minority) because the state largely relies on privately (Church) owned but public funded schools to provide an education to its citizens.
 
Re: my 2 cents

Why would a protestant parent, with a child in a non-denominational or protestant school be asked to contribute to a catholic school collection? Its just not an issue.
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Actually the thread isn't about school collections, it's about the Church Envelope collection. It was suggested that some of this money might make it to funding the school. I don't actually think this is true, the schools are paid for out of Taxes, as Clubman has pointed out.

To deal with your earlier question about Kids being left out when all their friends are getting ready for communion. It's easy for non-catholics to emulate the part of communion that the kids look forward to. Buy them some nice clothes and give them a bundle of unmarked non-sequential bills.

-Rd
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

As to the other comments...its all very well for (1)intelligent, (2) well educated (in catholic schools?), (3)middle class, (4)middle aged, (5)generally decent, (6)law abiding - (7)internet debating - (8 liberal thinkers to declare 'I'm a good person and I don't need religion'.
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I'm a bit worried about that comment as well Tharg since I don't fall into catagories 1,2,4 or 8 and 5,6, & 7 are open to debate... :D :D :D :D
 
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