Church offerings

Re: Church contributions

I really hope that this is not the case, that potentially a child could be refused entry to a school on religous grounds!

This would send the "I'm fed up with Ireland" forums wide open!

Can it be contested legally?

The schools would defend themselves by saying that the "applicant didn't fit the standard criteria!, Blaa blaa blaa"
 
Re: Church contributions

The rights of the school to discriminate on religious grounds is enshrined in the most recent (late 90's?) education act.
 
Re: Church contributions

I see that neither Leatherarse nor PMU responded to my challenge to point out a any intolerant or anti-RC comments in this topic so I can only assume that their silence on this matter indicates that they accept that they were wrong. Glad that matter's been put to bed so.
 
Re: Church contributions

Great stuff!

When can we start the "Is there really a God" thread?
 
Re: Church contributions

I think it's a good idea for children to be raised in some faith or religious community. It gives them a value system that they learn/experience in a world outside of their home. (and ideally inside it too!) Then they have the choice, when they are older, whether they want it to be part of their life or not. They will understand what it is they are saying yes or no to.

My parents are pretty religious people, not holy roller types but just good people who have genuine beliefs. I met a lot of similar people over the years through them, some of them priests. I get mad as hell with the institutional Church and am furious about some of the things that happened in the Church's name. But I have huge resepect for many of the people I met through my family, and their devotion and application of their beliefs in their day to day very ordinary lives is inspiring.

I think that's a gift worth giving your kids.
 
Re: Church contributions

I think it's a good idea for children to be raised in some faith or religious community. It gives them a value system that they learn/experience in a world outside of their home. (and ideally inside it too!) Then they have the choice, when they are older, whether they want it to be part of their life or not. They will understand what it is they are saying yes or no to.

I respect your opinion but I believe that, unless the parents themselves believe in the system/ethos being taught, and take an active role in the child's development in this context then the whole thing is a charade. Unfortunately such charades are very common in my experience as evidenced by many people doing the whole baptism, communion, confirmation, church wedding, church funeral, confession, mass etc. palaver because it's the done thing and not because of any fundamental belief in the actual ceremonies/services/sacraments. I certainly don't believe that some religious/faith based education is implicitly better than none. People can learn lots about the history and fundamental tenets of all sorts of beliefs without being brought up as "members by default". I know lots of atheists who know more about the Bible and Catholic theology than many self proclaimed believers.

When can we start the "Is there really a God" thread?

came close! :)
 
charades

Tedd,
Great post.

Clubman.
unless the parents themselves believe in the system/ethos being taught, and take an active role in the child's development in this context then the whole thing is a charade.
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I dont think this is altogether fair. Ironically I find it a bit righteous! The fact is some people have firm beliefs (there is a God/there definitely is not a God) but some people are quite simply uncertain. They mightnt like the RC church and mightnt agree with some of its teachings but might feel that there is a God or something there. I think for that group it is especially hard to decide whether or not to bring up their children in or out of church. I dont think its as black or white as you make it out to be....I dont think its a charade. Yes, its not ideal, but its not a charade.


I know lots of atheists who know more about the Bible and Catholic theology than many self proclaimed believers.
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So do I, just because someone is an atheist or agnostic does not imply they know nothing about God or religion and just because someone is a practicing Catholic or believer does not mean that they think they know everything about God/religion. Saying you believe in God is not proclaiming to know everything about God/catholism. Im not sure what point you are trying to make here.
 
Re: charades

I dont think this is altogether fair. Ironically I find it a bit righteous!

Why is it ironic that I might be righteous about this? Morals are not the sole preserve of those who have or claim to have religious beliefs. :p

The fact is some people have firm beliefs (there is a God/there definitely is not a God) but some people are quite simply uncertain. They mightnt like the RC church and mightnt agree with some of its teachings but might feel that there is a God or something there. I think for that group it is especially hard to decide whether or not to bring up their children in or out of church. I dont think its as black or white as you make it out to be....I dont think its a charade. Yes, its not ideal, but its not a charade.

What people do is their own affair. I'm just stating my own personal objection to the many people who, for one reason of another, do such things by rote with little or no introspection or understanding and, in many cases, often act contrary to the beliefs that are supposed to inform their lives.

Im not sure what point you are trying to make here.

My point was that it's not necessary to be involved in any particular religion to have some insight into how it operates as may have been suggested by tedd's post.
 
all good threads come to an end.

My point was that it's not necessary to be involved in any particular religion to have some insight into how it operates as may have been suggested by tedd's post.
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I dont think that was what he meant, but its up to Tedd to confirm that.

I was reading your link clubman to the other topic on "is there a God" and Ive actually realized Im inadvertantly breaking some AAM rules as brendan closed the thread saying:

If anyone wants to discuss religious topics, please find another site. All future religious topics will be deleted immediately.
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Based on this Im bowing out (of the thread not religion ;) )
but its been very enjoyable. Have a great day.

Cas.
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

just because someone is an atheist or agnostic does not imply they know nothing about God or religion
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I think you will find that an atheist does know nothing about God as they believe that there is no God/s. I tend to agree with ClubMan. Inconsistency between actions and words are easily detected by children. The best thing is to act and speak consistent with your beliefs. If you have doubts about the church but are a mass gower than expalin this to your children otherwise they suss you sooner than you thing.

Nogser
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

I think you will find that an atheist does know nothing about God as they believe that there is no God/s.
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eh? you don't have to believe that captain kirk is a real person to know a lot about star trek.
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

Hi Rainyday,

I really cannot see anything to criticise in the new guidelines, nor do I think it is fair to characterise it as "trying hard to cut down the number of participants in church ceremonies". The number of participants in church ceremonies has been going down for years now; is the answer to try to "jazz up" the churchand somehow broaden its appeal? or is it to try to re-focus on core values? The bishops clearly believe it is the latter. This is a legitimate approach in business; why not in religion too?


Incidentally, for catholics, this is by no means a new issue. To catholics (indeed to christians generally), one of the first important and decisive actions taken by This post will be deleted if not edited immediately as an adult on earth was to drive the traders and moneylenders from His Father's house.

The bishops are reminding practising catholics of this and in doing so they are (in my opinion) absolutely true to the teaching of the bible. That is what the bishops are there for - to remind catholics of what it is to be a catholic and to do their best to give appropriate guidance - even if catholics don't always agree with it and even if the bishops don't always get it right.

The church is not some sort of alternate bingo hall available for whatever social occasion people have in mind.

An uncle of mine died a couple of years ago. He was a bachelor and worked as a plasterer all his life. They placed his tools in the coffin, which was entirely appropriate and in keeping with a catholic burial. He was fond of his pint, but it would in my view have been out of keeping with a catholic ceremony to commemorate this - I have often been told by priests that working can be a form of prayer, but I have never yet heard a priest preaching that going to the pub can be a form of prayer. Except, of course, my brother doesn't drink at all and I am sure that there have been many nights when he drove myself and friends home when he might jutifiably have offered it up as a penance, but that's a separate issue.


So well done to the bishops for standing up and reminding people.

regards;
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

Hi MOB - Perhaps my tongue was somewhat in my cheek with my last post. Of course, I respect the right of the church to set out the ground rules for what happens on their turf. I just fail to understand how giving a eulogy at the graveside, or before/after the Mass should be in some way preferable to a eulogy during the Mass. Or why personal mementos could be placed 'near the coffin' but not on the coffin. Personally, I'd have thought that the Church has far bigger issues to worry about than the placing of mementoes during funerals.
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

They placed his tools in the coffin, which was entirely appropriate and in keeping with a catholic burial.

Actually (and not being flippant) it probably has more in common with pagan and other pre-Christian rituals, particularly given the Christian teaching of not being able to take worldly goods with you after death. It's interesting from an anthropological point of view to see how religions often adapt to and integrate the pre-existing social and religious conventions of different regions.

Apart from that, as an outsider, and as I mentioned in the , I certainly wouldn't dispute the clergy's right to show leadership on such issues towards their followers. Maybe I can be sanguine because they don't have any relevance to me - apart from where church and state commingle as in the example of the schools/hospitals etc. mentioned earlier.
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

rainyday - a funeral mass has a specific form and the bishops are simply reminding people of this.

To put it in a business context - a board meeting has a specific form. The people attending may well be great singers and are no doubt welcome to do a karaoke before or after the meeting, but while it is convened it would not be appropriate.

To bring it back to the religious context - holding a wake and having a few drinks and a meal in the deceaseds memory are part of the funeral process, but they are not appropriate as part of the funeral mass.

z
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

I think it's a good idea for children to be raised in some faith or religious community. It gives them a value system that they learn/experience in a world outside of their home. (and ideally inside it too!)
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Hi Tedd - I don't see the necessity for a faith/religious community to create a value system. IMHO, it somewhat weakens a value system, by creating a dependence on an outside being (i.e. it is wrong because He says it is wrong, rather than it is inherently wrong because of the impact of the action).

Hi Zag - I guess the Bish touched a nerve because he feels that several of the actions taken by me & my siblings at my mothers funeral (approx. 10 years ago) would be seen as inappropriate. No - we didn't have Karaoke in the church ;) We had one of my mother's paintings and a wicker basket which she had been fond of as part of the offetary procession and placed on her coffin. Several of my siblings spoke towards the end of the mass, which I believe was particularly important as many of the attendees would have been friends of me & my siblings, and would only have had a passing aquaintance with our mother.

We did nothing inappropriate, but it seems slightly ludicrous that we would now have to get the eulogy 'vetted' by the priest beforehand.
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

Rainyday, I just copped this post, why should each and everyone dictate to the Church what is right and what is wrong about Church ceremonies . The Church make their rules and if you dont like them then "tough This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language". You as a parent (I surmise ) have rules in your own house and you expect these to be adhered to ... The same exists in all Religions, clubs , etc. So forget the petty bickering and move your life on.

Ps. I buried my mother a few months back so I am speaking from experience. We had the most beautiful ceremony imaginable and all within the guidelines of the Church.
 
Re: all good threads come to an end.

Hi LA - See my comments earlier in the thread;

Of course, I respect the right of the church to set out the ground rules for what happens on their turf. I just fail to understand how giving a eulogy at the graveside, or before/after the Mass should be in some way preferable to a eulogy during the Mass. Or why personal mementos could be placed 'near the coffin' but not on the coffin. Personally, I'd have thought that the Church has far bigger issues to worry about than the placing of mementoes
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