Church offerings

my 2 cents

The Catholic church is one of the most wealthiest organisations in the world.

Would you give Bill Gates a brown envelope?
 
Re: my 2 cents

Surely that's a question you should be directing to your Church?

There's no point in Leatherarse doing this seeing that it's a moot question as I have pointed out already.
 
Re: my 2 cents

Sorry lads I cant talk now I have to go to mass ....it's Sunday and I have to pay your dues! :)
 
I think ye should all (or most of ye anyway) grow up. This pathetic anti-Church, anti-priest thing got old in the late 90's. The original question was straightforward enough! The 'November Offering' is just a way for parishes to help balance the books and at the same time help anyone who wants to pray for their deceased (sp?) friends and family by providing a list so that those people can be remembered in the Masses during the month. I think the answer to the question would be whatever you can afford or feel like giving.

Grow up! The vast majority of religious in this country have given far more than we like to think. As for being rich beyond measure, land is their only real wealth. Some was given as part of the compensation for abuses comitted by members, other land was sold and money ploughed back into their other projects in less fortunate parts of the world and yet more was given away for free to community groups. I know of one in Kerry and one in Cork only recently where very valuable land was handed over for the good of future generations. Does anyone really think religious orders should start selling schools?

Again, you can believe or not believe, but this constant, adolescent bitterness directed at 'de Church' is just ridiculous.
 
This pathetic anti-Church, anti-priest thing got old in the late 90's.

I'm not anti-Church, or anti-priest. I believe if people want to go to Church, and give priests money, then that's their business.

I just don't like it when people assume that 'everyone should go to Church' - or that the the only reason people don't go to Church is because they're 'too hungover or lazy'. Alas, It is part of the Catholic faith to be fishers of men.

The vast majority of religious in this country have given far more than we like to think

Is there a positive correlation between generosity and religion?
 
a way for parishes to help balance the books and at the same time help anyone who wants to pray for their deceased (sp?) friends and family by providing a list so that those people can be remembered in the Masses during the month.
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Two noble causes indeed - but why the cash for the former is linked to the indulgences from the latter, I don't know.
 
Grow up!

I like to think that one characteristic of grown up behaviour is the ability to discuss matters in a reasonable, fact based and calm manner without resorting to rudeness.

I think ye should all (or most of ye anyway) grow up. This pathetic anti-Church, anti-priest thing got old in the late 90's.

...

Again, you can believe or not believe, but this constant, adolescent bitterness directed at 'de Church' is just ridiculous.

Perhaps you could point out precisely in this topic where anybody expressed anti-church/priest sentiments or bitterness towards those individuals or institutions?

The original question was straightforward enough! ... I think the answer to the question would be whatever you can afford or feel like giving.

I agree. But note that, as with many discussions here or in the real world they have a habit of broadening out or taking unexpected turns.

Does anyone really think religious orders should start selling schools?

Did anybody suggest that here?

I would agree with Rainyday that the "list of the dead" does carry with it at least a hint of simony. Be that as it may, in the same vein as XXXAnother PersonXXX's comments, it's not really any concern of mine as a non-believer/participant but more of an issue for those who do believe/participate/practice.

Coincidentally, while not a Christian myself, I did happen to attend an ecumenical memorial service today in the Church of Ireland church in whose cemetery my father is buried and made a contribution to the collection which happened to be for the establishment of a hospice in the local area.
 
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Aren't the churches obliged to pay towards the local schools??

In that case, isn;t if the government you should be giving out to???
 
giving the church money

Interesting discussion.

When I moved away from Ireland and registered in my local town (as is legally required of me) I was all of a sudden presented with a "catholic tax". (For the record I could have lied and said Im agnostic and gotten out of it). While Im relatively peeved that I now have to pay my catholic tax it did make me appreciate living in ireland where I didnt have to pay any religious tax. When I looked into it I found out that ireland is the only catholic country in europe that is totally dependent on these contributions and doesnt get this substantial government support we all think it does.

Please feel free to dispute!
 
Re: giving the church money

While Im relatively peeved that I now have to pay my catholic tax it did make me appreciate living in ireland where I didnt have to pay any religious tax. When I looked into it I found out that ireland is the only catholic country in europe that is totally dependent on these contributions and doesnt get this substantial government support we all think it does.
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Other than the monies paid to the RC church for the schools and hospitals that it runs as an agent to spread its narrow philosophy.

And also other than the State underwriting the church against the claims by victims of sexual abuse, and those poor girls in the Industrial schools. The Roman Catholic church was well aware of these abuses for generations, but in its wisdom decided to sweep it all under the carpet. Now that this horrid corruption has been exposed, and the innocent victims are looking for compensation for their shattered lives, the Irish State (ie the Irish taxpayer) comes forward to pick up a good slice of the tab. Even in a "God fearing" country like America, the Catholic church has been told to pay for its sins, and would be left to go bankrupt rather than be bailed out by the taxpayers.

The difference between Ireland and Germany, is that in Germany, taxpayers have the option to pay Church tax, while in Ireland taxpayers of all religions and none still subvent the RC church.
 
Re: giving the church money

I also think that the church is very important to a lot of people, and good for them.

Personally, after hearing a Kerry priest delcare on national radio this year that non-regular mass goers should not offer their children for baptism in catholic churches (or get married), that was the last straw.
 
Re: giving the church money

Please feel free to dispute!

Yes - I have to dispute your assertion that

ireland is the only catholic country in europe that is totally dependent on these contributions and doesnt get this substantial government support we all think it does.
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I have already posted twice in this topic how the majority of primary schools are owned by the Catholic church (as well as other churches) but the bulk of the running costs are provided by Government. If this is not a contribution then I don't know what is. Obviously the state is largely dependent on the church(es) for the provision of education. My opinion is that it should move away from this situation by establishing a secular state run system of schools open to all citizens. Parents who want religious education for their children could then opt out and place them in religious run schools or else have religious education carried out out of normal school hours (e.g. "Sunday school" etc.). Not that I realistically expect this to happen any time soon though.

In relation to opt-in "religious taxes" my opinion would be why should the state expend resources collecting funds for religious institutions? If people want to contribute towards their chosen institution then surely they can do it just as well directly?
 
Re: giving the church money

Personally, after hearing a Kerry priest delcare on national radio this year that non-regular mass goers should not offer their children for baptism in catholic churches (or get married), that was the last straw.

Ah - I remember that like it was yesterday! :)
 
autumn offerings

Hi Clubman!

Quote:Yes - I have to dispute your assertion that

actually, I didnt assert this, if you reread my post I said when I looked into this at home this was what I found out. I wasnt asserting it to be fact however, hence the "please feel free to dispute" statement.

Quote: the majority of primary schools are owned by the Catholic church (as well as other churches) but the bulk of the running costs are provided by Government

I dont disagree with your opinion re schools, and I too think the separation would not be a bad thing. I dont see though how the Government contributing to the running costs of church-owned schools is an issue here as should this separation (of church and school) take place this money would still be going from the government to running cost of the now non-denominational school.


Quote: In relation to opt-in "religious taxes" my opinion would be why should the state expend resources collecting funds for religious institutions?

For the record, I wasnt advocating religious taxes.

Quote: If people want to contribute towards their chosen institution then surely they can do it just as well directly?

Which they do in Ireland, (see the original posters question about the november offering), this was the point of my original post. I was just highlighting that I see these voluntary contributions in Ireland as a good thing.

Co-incidently coming into work on the train this morning I read that here, in Switzerland (not Germany), they want to introduce a religious tax for all, regardless of denomination. Currently you only pay tax if your catholic or protestant, now they want to introduce a religious tax for all regardless of religious belief...should promote some interesting debate on swiss askaboutmoney.

Cas.
 
Re: autumn offerings

I dont see though how the Government contributing to the running costs of church-owned schools is an issue here as should this separation (of church and school) take place this money would still be going from the government to running cost of the now non-denominational school.

You said that your research showed that in Ireland religious institutions did not receive funding. My argument is that state funding of church owned schools does represent such funding. It is on this basis that I disputed your assertion.

For the record, I wasnt advocating religious taxes.

Fair enough. I never said that you were and was merely giving my opinion on the matter.

Which they do in Ireland, (see the original posters question about the november offering), this was the point of my original post. I was just highlighting that I see these voluntary contributions in Ireland as a good thing.

Yes - I was simply saying that the status quo in this respect is fine and that I don't see any justification for the state to expend resources collecting contributions to religious institutions.

should promote some interesting debate on swiss askaboutmoney.

Yes - I wonder how they plan to decide what institutions will qualify for payments from the religious tax funds?
 
church vs. school

Hi Clubman.

Quote: My argument is that state funding of church owned schools does represent such funding. It is on this basis that I disputed your assertion.

But do you not agree that this monies is going to a school, yes a church-owned school, but the school nonetheless. If church and school were to separate I would still want to see that money going to that primary school. On that basis I wouldnt include it as "church funding"....its "school funding".
 
Re: church vs. school

It's church owned school funding but I guess we're splitting hairs at this stage...
 
Re: church vs. school

Lets face facts lads education has to be paid for ,which or whether either it comes from parents pockets & government on the other hand it can all come from government which is much the same thing we will all have to pay extra tax to cover this,
which would probably be better as all you tight fisted atheists would have to pay your fair share anyway

Horse throw in €20 if you can afford it. The priests will probably need it going by all the non-contributors posting here.;)
 
Re: church vs. school

Lets face facts lads education has to be paid for ,which or whether either it comes from parents pockets & government on the other hand it can all come from government which is much the same thing we will all have to pay extra tax to cover this,

We are already paying tax to cover this - I have posted this information at least three times already to this topic.

which would probably be better as all you tight fisted atheists would have to pay your fair share anyway

We are paying our fair share but no matter how often I make this point you don't seem to understand it. My problem is that I don't like religious institutions being the conduit for most of it. This is simply my personal opinion.

By the way, less of the insults and a bit more Christian tolerance might reflect better on you... :\

I have never seen such a shower of miserable bast**ds ...

...

Many of you have lost religion because you are too lazy or hungover to go to Mass on a Sunday ...

...

... which would probably be better as all you tight fisted atheists would have to pay your fair share anyway
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Re: church vs. school

"My problem is that I don't like religious institutions being the conduit for most of it"

Hi Clubman,

In fairness, if the Church were a mere conduit, it is hard to see what objection there could be. Surely it is the influence which the church is perceived to wield (as a result of receiving this funding) which really bothers you.

I very much suspect that use of religious institutions has allowed the state to get education provided more cheaply than if it was all administered by public servants. I know that this is not justification of itself, but for many decades resources were very scarce and by using the church and religious orders, resources were made to go further. Not a bad thing in my view.

With the decline of the religious orders and many schools now in the effective control of boards of management, I think we are moving gradually toward a situation where schools are only nominally under the control of the parish (or religious order as the case may be). In effect, the Church and religious orders now have much less of a managerial role, and are more like mere trustees. We have already seen this happen in the hospital sector, where most religious-run hospitals have been handed over to the state (I think only the Bons Secours are left - maybe a few others?). So it seems to me that the education sector is already moving inexorably in the direction that you want to see it go. It will be interesting to see in ten or twenty years time whether this proves to have been a good thing.

rgds.
 
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