Church offerings

Re: church vs. school

They are not insults , I am just stating facts, you are the one who asked for Christian tolerence, where's yours.

As regards religious institutes being a "conduit for the money . where would we be without them? They were the instigators and backbone of education here over the years and let us not forget that.

Re: church vs. school

think we are moving gradually toward a situation where schools are only nominally under the control of the parish

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Hi MOB - Try getting your unbaptised child into a church-controlled/managed school in Dublin and you will see how 'nominal' the control is.

Re: church vs. school

They are not insults , I am just stating facts,

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They are not facts. I concur that they are insults. I find many of your comments both insulting and intolerant.

I'm neither miserable or a bastard. I don't go to Mass because of my beliefs and I pay my fair share of taxes.

Re: church vs. school

I'm sorry I even mentioned about schools to begin with. I just thought that people should be aware of where their church contributions go ... or are supposed to go.

IMHO the church still has a hold on us whether we like to believe it or not ... I am not a regular Mass goer, but I still believe in God and most of the teachings of the RC church.

Should I bring my children up as RC ... at the moment I'm not doing a very good job of teaching them religion ... but they do learn a lot of it at school ... whether they believe or not. The school my children attend is the local NS and as such is a RC school, there are children with other beliefs attending but they are not excused from the catecism classes.

Would I deny my child a first holy communion because I don't go to Mass regularly? I'm not sure ... is it hypocritical to find religion in time for your childs' 8th birthday?

Re: church vs. school

Would I deny my child a first holy communion because I don't go to Mass regularly?

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Interesting that you should think that first communion is a 'given', unless you have a reason to deny it. I'd be looking for good reasons to proceed with it, rather than looking for reasons to deny it.

Re: church vs. school

I suppose if your eight year old fully understands Transubstantiation and all its implications, and also believes in it, that would be reason enough.

1st holy communion

Would I deny my child a first holy communion because I don't go to Mass regularly? I'm not sure ... is it hypocritical to find religion in time for your childs' 8th birthday?

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I think in this scenario hennypenny you just have to trust your instincts. If you decide to go ahead with first holy communion I dont think you are being hypocritical.

Your child can still choose when he/she is older to believe or not to believe.

Good luck,
Cas.

Re: church vs. school

Hi MOB

In fairness, if the Church were a mere conduit, it is hard to see what objection there could be. Surely it is the influence which the church is perceived to wield (as a result of receiving this funding) which really bothers you.

Yes - perhaps I could have phrased that better.

I very much suspect that use of religious institutions has allowed the state to get education provided more cheaply than if it was all administered by public servants. I know that this is not justification of itself, but for many decades resources were very scarce and by using the church and religious orders, resources were made to go further. Not a bad thing in my view.

Fair point.

With the decline of the religious orders and many schools now in the effective control of boards of management, I think we are moving gradually toward a situation where schools are only nominally under the control of the parish (or religious order as the case may be). In effect, the Church and religious orders now have much less of a managerial role, and are more like mere trustees. We have already seen this happen in the hospital sector, where most religious-run hospitals have been handed over to the state (I think only the Bons Secours are left - maybe a few others?). So it seems to me that the education sector is already moving inexorably in the direction that you want to see it go.

The problem here is what is "nominal". With the schools and other institutions such as some hospitals for example supposedly "nominal" control is still wielded with strong effect from time to time (e.g. the Bishops objecting to the standardised term arrangements and, specifically, teacher training on November 1st because it was a holy day of obligation).

Re: church vs. school

Leatherarse,

They are not insults , I am just stating facts

Well, look like insults to me but if you can provider proof of them being facts I'd be interested to hear from you.

Update: I see that XXXAnother PersonXXX has already dealt with this one and I totally agree with him again (this will have to stop! ). To address your specific insults (a) I don't consider myself to be miserable, tight-fisted or a bastard (b) I never avoided mass due to laziness or hangovers but rather because I did not believe in it or the charade that it represented for many people and (c) I am an atheist so at least you did hit on one factual piece of information in amongst your insults.

you are the one who asked for Christian tolerence, where's yours.

Please point out where in this topic I have expressed any intolerance?

Re: church vs. school

Your child can still choose when he/she is older to believe or not to believe.

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Once again, why would you put them though communion on this basis. Why not wait until they can make their own decision?

Re: church vs. school

The school my children attend is the local NS and as such is a RC school, there are children with other beliefs attending but they are not excused from the catecism classes.

Does anybody know if this is a general policy or if it depends on the individual school?

holy communion

Once again, why would you put them though communion on this basis. Why not wait until they can make their own decision?

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Like I said, Hennypenny should trust his/her instincts on this as a parent. It could be that he/she does exactly as you say rainyday. Either way it doesnt make him/her a hypocrite.

excused

Does anybody know if this is a general policy or if it depends on the individual school?

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Hi Clubman,

I think its down to the individual school and even possibley the individual teacher. I know in my niece's class non-catholics are excused from all religion classes. She, amusingly, announced one day that she wanted to be muslim so that she can play with her barbie at the back of the class instead of religion.

cas.

Re: excused

I wonder which is least damaging to a child - Catholicism, Islam, or the Disney religion personified by the Barbie icons.

Re: excused

or the Disney religion personified by the Barbie icons.

Don't you mean Mattelism?

By the way - thanks for the feedback casiopea.

church

HennyPenny,

my son will be making his first communion this year.

There are many many things about the catholic church that I dislike and disagree with. And I do not live my life strictly (maybe not even loosely) to the rules of the RC church. I know for this reason many would say (including a number of priests) that my son should not be making his communion. But looking back on all I learnt and all the good that I got out of being brought up as a catholic christian and taught religion and other subjects in RC schools I've decided it is the right thing to do. There were a lot of good points to it too and people should try to remember those things as well.

A lot of the general teachings/messages are very good and worthwhile and I think you can get a lot from those even though you might not agree with all the others.

aldaco.

Re: church

Not disputing your prerogative to lead your life and bring up your children whatever way you choose but I strongly believe that it's better to adhere to a system in which you believe and not one chosen by default in which you don't. The latter is a cop out and may be a recipe for a life (or lives) lived on a basis of hypocricy in my personal opinion.

Re: Church contributions

Well, it’s easy to see why most Irish people were Kerry, rather than faith-based Bush, supporters when you see the anti-RC bile posted on this topic. The original poster ‘horse’ simply asked how much others contribute in ‘Autumn Offerings’ – I’ve no idea what these are by the way – and rather than provide factual responses, this gave rise to a series of anti-RC Church diatribes. If you live in Germany, for example, you would be expected to register your religion and have a portion of your income tax diverted to the church. Of course you could refuse, but then try to get your kids into an RC school (generally the best) and you’ll find it’s impossible as you are not registered as an RC for tax purposes. They get preference. Now personally I’ve no axe to grind in this as I believe that most RC priests in Ireland are agents of communism (just look at the Marxist nonsense from CORI for example) so you won’t catch me darkening their doorways unless I have to, but if you are a member of a club you should contribute. I’d say 100 euro would be the minimum. You could contribute up to 200 euro, i.e. less than the price of a pint per week, which is a cheapo price to pay for salvation. Even if you are not a true believer at least you will get the moral satisfaction that you have contributed more than the other worshipers, or should I say begrudgers. Whenever I have to attend an RC church ceremony I always throw at least a 10 if not 20 euro note on the plate. I don’t know if it means much to This post will be deleted if not edited immediately but it sure embarrasses the hell out of the others chucking their 50 cent coins in.

Re: Church contributions

Well, it’s easy to see why most Irish people were Kerry, rather than faith-based Bush, supporters

Did somebody do survey on Irish support for the two presidential campaigners or something?

the anti-RC bile posted on this topic ... a series of anti-RC Church diatribes.

Any chance that you could point out precisely where these occur in this topic? As far as I can see, with the exception of some rude contributions by Leatherarse and MaxKolbe03 this discussion has been quite reasoned and balanced.

and rather than provide factual responses

Actually there were some answers to the original question but, as is often the case, the discussion broadened out into more general matters related to the original question.

Whenever I have to attend an RC church ceremony I always throw at least a 10 if not 20 euro note on the plate. I don’t know if it means much to This post will be deleted if not edited immediately but it sure embarrasses the hell out of the others chucking their 50 cent coins in.

From what I know of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately's teachings he would take a pretty dim view of such hubris.

Re: Church contributions

"Hi MOB - Try getting your unbaptised child into a church-controlled/managed school in Dublin and you will see how 'nominal' the control is. "

Hi Rainyday,

In fairness, I did say that the move is a gradual one. I like gradual moves; but I am surprised to hear that an unbaptised child would have been refused entry to a Dublin school. I would have thought it unusual in this day and age. I have nothing against religious schools mind you - I just didn't think that there were too many left that still operate to cater strictly and only for children of any one particular religion .

Presumably the school admits no non-christians - or would it operate a different standard if Muslim parents sought to enrol their child? I would be very interested to hear if your experience is a common one. Anybody else out there?