Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
Maybe we could build a TV reality/game show around it?
BUPA leaving Ireland
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ubiquitous
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Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
I can't see how Ireland is any different from any other country where the health insurance market has been opened up to competition?
You admit that you have no evidence to back up your theory nor can you give any examples of its application elsewhere. As such it doesn't appear too convincing, to say the least.
I can't see how Ireland is any different from any other country where the health insurance market has been opened up to competition?
You admit that you have no evidence to back up your theory nor can you give any examples of its application elsewhere. As such it doesn't appear too convincing, to say the least.
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
bring on the american insurance way of doing things, no need for bupa to pay the vhi then..... just pay 5/6 times what we are paying now, even more if your older, smoker, family history cancer, dodgy hips, genetic disease'e etc etc.... personally if it means everyone paying the same amount of money for the same insurance policy, then i'm for it... Bupa are bluffing, first they were leaving now listening to any reasonable offer from the gov...
bring on the american insurance way of doing things, no need for bupa to pay the vhi then..... just pay 5/6 times what we are paying now, even more if your older, smoker, family history cancer, dodgy hips, genetic disease'e etc etc.... personally if it means everyone paying the same amount of money for the same insurance policy, then i'm for it... Bupa are bluffing, first they were leaving now listening to any reasonable offer from the gov...
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
that could be good... get derek mooney to be the host.... BBBBBYYYYYEEEEEEEEEE
that could be good... get derek mooney to be the host.... BBBBBYYYYYEEEEEEEEEE
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
List all Irish PHI subscribers older than 60 alphabetically, divide them into 3 groups proportionate to the current market share of the 3 companies and dole them out.
List all Irish PHI subscribers older than 60 alphabetically, divide them into 3 groups proportionate to the current market share of the 3 companies and dole them out.
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
What about those who don't want to move? And don't you have to do this on a regular (e.g. annual) basis? All this meddling with the market really doesn't sound like a good idea. Better to somehow (the $6M question!) make the market more attractive to other service providers who will come in of their own accord.
What about those who don't want to move? And don't you have to do this on a regular (e.g. annual) basis? All this meddling with the market really doesn't sound like a good idea. Better to somehow (the $6M question!) make the market more attractive to other service providers who will come in of their own accord.
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
that idea would be shot down... making people move ! so much for choice and freedom to choose your own insurance company.
that idea would be shot down... making people move ! so much for choice and freedom to choose your own insurance company.
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
The problem being that Vhi are paying out the cost based on an ambulance transfer when in fact the reality was a taxi. Big argument on Joe Duffy about 9 months ago on the incredible wastage of Vhi with calls from peple who queried the bills the hospitals sent them.
Is the Australian system that Mary Harney's office is always admiring that the over 65's choose whatever insurance company they want to be with and then the maths in done later. Risk Equalistaion based only on the over 65's and the cost sharing being much more stictly and fairer controlled than the Irish proposal.
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baby_tooth
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Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
if they could sort out the public health service, got rid of all the wasteful admin and started delivering value for money, then there wouldn't be a need for all this extra insurance.!...
if they could sort out the public health service, got rid of all the wasteful admin and started delivering value for money, then there wouldn't be a need for all this extra insurance.!...
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
Without having access to board papers, or the like, I clearly can't prove the theory beyond all doubt. However, the evidence is heavily weighted in favour of this 'conspiracy theory' as you term it. BUPA entered a market knowing full well RE would be implemented. It's preposterous to believe that their strategy was based on an assumption that RE wouldn't come in. If a market with RE is unprofitable for them, then their numbers must have shown that it only made sense for them to stay in whilst the introduction of RE was being deferred. Given that, the best or perhaps only sensible strategy would have been to keep trying to defer the introduction of RE and target the youngest members you can. They achieved this. If the market with RE is unprofitable for them, why else would they have entered this market?
Without having access to board papers, or the like, I clearly can't prove the theory beyond all doubt. However, the evidence is heavily weighted in favour of this 'conspiracy theory' as you term it. BUPA entered a market knowing full well RE would be implemented. It's preposterous to believe that their strategy was based on an assumption that RE wouldn't come in. If a market with RE is unprofitable for them, then their numbers must have shown that it only made sense for them to stay in whilst the introduction of RE was being deferred. Given that, the best or perhaps only sensible strategy would have been to keep trying to defer the introduction of RE and target the youngest members you can. They achieved this. If the market with RE is unprofitable for them, why else would they have entered this market?
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
surely it's then hospital that called the taxi, as there was no ambulance available to transfer the patients, as they must not have been that ill, and then if the vhi did not pay for it, people would be giving out about that... by using a taxi they are leaving an ambulance free for accidents, real emergencies etc etc....
don't forget the hospitals are not going to be out of pocket, they will want to get the money back from somewhere !
nicelives said:
surely it's then hospital that called the taxi, as there was no ambulance available to transfer the patients, as they must not have been that ill, and then if the vhi did not pay for it, people would be giving out about that... by using a taxi they are leaving an ambulance free for accidents, real emergencies etc etc....
don't forget the hospitals are not going to be out of pocket, they will want to get the money back from somewhere !
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ubiquitous
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Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
Are you 100% sure that this is the case? BUPA commenced trading here 10 years ago. They obviously made their decision to enter the Irish market at least a year or two previously, ie in the period from 1994-1996, during which time we had FF/Lab and Rainbow governments. The country has changed irrevocably in the meantime as have government policies in many areas. In fact there is hardly any aspect of government policy that would have remained static in the intervening 11-12 years. Anyone who claims that there was 100% public certainty in 1994-96 about the government's health insurance policies by 2005-2006 is talking nonsense.
Your theory fails to recognise the basic fact that BUPAs argument is not with risk equalisation per se but the calculation of same. One would have expected that the figures involved in the whole RE exercise, to be credible, would have borne some relationship to the profitability of the parties concerned. In that context, the proposed levying of €161m from a company making circa €60m per year seems odd to say the least. Frankly this reminds me of Ray Burke's attempts to cap RTE's profits to benefit Century Radio in the early 1990s. And we all know what happened there...
Are you 100% sure that this is the case? BUPA commenced trading here 10 years ago. They obviously made their decision to enter the Irish market at least a year or two previously, ie in the period from 1994-1996, during which time we had FF/Lab and Rainbow governments. The country has changed irrevocably in the meantime as have government policies in many areas. In fact there is hardly any aspect of government policy that would have remained static in the intervening 11-12 years. Anyone who claims that there was 100% public certainty in 1994-96 about the government's health insurance policies by 2005-2006 is talking nonsense.
Your theory fails to recognise the basic fact that BUPAs argument is not with risk equalisation per se but the calculation of same. One would have expected that the figures involved in the whole RE exercise, to be credible, would have borne some relationship to the profitability of the parties concerned. In that context, the proposed levying of €161m from a company making circa €60m per year seems odd to say the least. Frankly this reminds me of Ray Burke's attempts to cap RTE's profits to benefit Century Radio in the early 1990s. And we all know what happened there...
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
But you are right this is the one thing that has always perplexed me about the situation, one would have presumed that the levy would be a percentage of profits - obviously a fixed sum in excess of profits would not make sense. What we really need I suppose is an independent assessment of both BUPA profitability and what the likely RE payments will be on an ongoing basis (call me cynical, but I don't believe the figures being bandied around by BUPA).
Is the 161M a one-off payment with an additonal (smaller) levy each year thereafter? That would not seem excessive in the context of €60M p.a profits.
But you are right this is the one thing that has always perplexed me about the situation, one would have presumed that the levy would be a percentage of profits - obviously a fixed sum in excess of profits would not make sense. What we really need I suppose is an independent assessment of both BUPA profitability and what the likely RE payments will be on an ongoing basis (call me cynical, but I don't believe the figures being bandied around by BUPA).
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
Community rating/risk equalisation etc is meddling with this market already. I'm sure there would be some level of "outrage" with this proposal but the 3 companies provide more or less the same degree of cover and if transferring elderly subscribers from VHI to the other two helps maintain the current level of market competitiveness then it would be worth it.
Short of new players entering the market, it need only be done once to level the playing field and all 3 companies can then compete agressively for younger, more profitable members. To soften the blow anyone forcibly removed from their original insurer could be allowed return after 12 months. Inertia would have taken over by then.
Community rating/risk equalisation etc is meddling with this market already. I'm sure there would be some level of "outrage" with this proposal but the 3 companies provide more or less the same degree of cover and if transferring elderly subscribers from VHI to the other two helps maintain the current level of market competitiveness then it would be worth it.
Short of new players entering the market, it need only be done once to level the playing field and all 3 companies can then compete agressively for younger, more profitable members. To soften the blow anyone forcibly removed from their original insurer could be allowed return after 12 months. Inertia would have taken over by then.
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
I don't think it's neccessarily bad, healthcare in my opinion is not a normal good or service, if it were, we would be effectively condemming large numbers of less well off people to death if they happened to get an illness requiring expensive treatment. Whilst competition generally eradicates inefficiencies, in the case of health insurance the only real competition would have to remove all pretences of community rating, in the absence of such an undesireable situation we can't have real competition anyway, hence it might be as well to have a service provider who pumps all their revenue back into the health system.
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
The RE transfer is based on cost of claims, not on overall profitability so if two companies had equal market share and one (A) had 70M cost of claims + 30M expenses (total 100M) and the other (B) had cost of claims 90M and 10M expenses (so total 100M) - RE would transfer 10M of claims from company B to company A so that they both had the same cost of claims (80M). Company A then has greater overall costs (110M) than company B (90M) which may make it unprofitable - because of its higher expenses, not because of RE.
This is a bit of a simplification but it gives a reasonable idea of how it operates.
Agree that an independent assessment of BUPA's profitability would be v enlightening - any commentators who have been privy to this info (politicians, judges) seem to agree that their profits have been very large.
The RE transfer is based on cost of claims, not on overall profitability so if two companies had equal market share and one (A) had 70M cost of claims + 30M expenses (total 100M) and the other (B) had cost of claims 90M and 10M expenses (so total 100M) - RE would transfer 10M of claims from company B to company A so that they both had the same cost of claims (80M). Company A then has greater overall costs (110M) than company B (90M) which may make it unprofitable - because of its higher expenses, not because of RE.
This is a bit of a simplification but it gives a reasonable idea of how it operates.
Agree that an independent assessment of BUPA's profitability would be v enlightening - any commentators who have been privy to this info (politicians, judges) seem to agree that their profits have been very large.
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
This does give a good picture of how it works, thanks. But what if a company has a lower claims costs because it's driven better agreements with the medical centres/hospitals etc or if it incentivises it's member to get health checks? What if it takes steps to keep it's claims costs down? Shouldn't this also be recognised?
This does give a good picture of how it works, thanks. But what if a company has a lower claims costs because it's driven better agreements with the medical centres/hospitals etc or if it incentivises it's member to get health checks? What if it takes steps to keep it's claims costs down? Shouldn't this also be recognised?
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
well with hospitals charging the higher rates, like the private hospitals, due to the cost of drugs, high cost of wages, from consultants, nurses pay agreements etc and with patients demanding the insurance comps pay their claim in full, and them only being able to haggle to a certain degree with the hospital, it's a bit hard for the comps to keeps costs down.....
one interesting point is that in australia, its the hospitals that have to tender to the likes of bupa, vhi and vivas to get them to cover their subscribers in their hospitals. again thats only if there are too many private hospitals in a catchment area...
well with hospitals charging the higher rates, like the private hospitals, due to the cost of drugs, high cost of wages, from consultants, nurses pay agreements etc and with patients demanding the insurance comps pay their claim in full, and them only being able to haggle to a certain degree with the hospital, it's a bit hard for the comps to keeps costs down.....
one interesting point is that in australia, its the hospitals that have to tender to the likes of bupa, vhi and vivas to get them to cover their subscribers in their hospitals. again thats only if there are too many private hospitals in a catchment area...
Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost
Exactly but €500 plus for a taxi transfer from one Dublin hospital to another is what the Vhi pay out, there's the wastage. All this was highlighted on Joe Duffy, not my own personal experience as I'm with BUPA.
Exactly but €500 plus for a taxi transfer from one Dublin hospital to another is what the Vhi pay out, there's the wastage. All this was highlighted on Joe Duffy, not my own personal experience as I'm with BUPA.