Brexit

[TheBigShort]

Who/what is WM?

Sorry, my bad -- Westminster. I use it for Twitter abbreviation.

 

[galway_blow_in]

Agreed, but as an idiot's guide to 400 years of NI politics, not to mention his pen picture of the Paisleyites, this piece was superb and compulsory viewing for Irish history Leaving Cert students.

well he demonised the ulster scots to a pretty offensive degree , what was the point of taking a dig at those who emigrated to appalachia centuries ago ?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I must admit that I am stunned by how badly the DUP did in their deal with the Tories.

They got increased flexibility to spend an existing €500m, just enough to cover the cash for ash scheme, and a further €2bn over 2 years.

Thats 5% of the existing grant. The DUP put the Tories into government for a 5% pay rise. Unbelievable ! A once in a generation opportunity and they settled for 5%. I thought they would screw far more out of Theresa.

The Tories got to form a government, Theresa gets to be PM, appoint the entire cabinet, all the probably thousands of patronage jobs and the DUP settled for a 5% pay rise. I thought they're made of sterner stuff.

Agreed. Changing all the street signs to Irish/English, having Irish/English announcements on public travel, providing an Irish alternative to all public service interactions etc. will swallow that up in no time. Notice how down here we get away with pretending Irish/English equality; up there you can bet the shinners would grind the system to a halt in exercising their rights to have all communications in Irish.
Basic fact, the shinners aren't fit for power North or South.

 

[TheBigShort]

Changing all the street signs to Irish/English, having Irish/English announcements on public travel, providing an Irish alternative to all public service interactions etc. will swallow that up in no time. Notice how down here we get away with pretending Irish/English equality; up there you can bet the shinners would grind the system to a halt in exercising their rights to have all communications in Irish.

Of course most of this is BS. The notion that Acht na Gaeilge will be some administrative burden, draining the resources of stormont, is lame at best.
As for 'down here', it wasnt that long ago that the Dáil stood in unison to acknowledge the 80,000 Traveller community as an ethnic race, but the 80,000 native Irish speakers are somehow not to be afforded the same status in their own country?
Perhaps I'm in the wrong place? AAM is what it says on the tin - about money. Nothing else, the profit and loss, the maths, the bottom line.
Sad really, because all of it (money) is worth zero without the confidence and support of society - without socialism all profiteers and capitalists are redundant.

 

[Purple]

because all of it (money) is worth zero without the confidence and support of society -

I don't think many people would disagree with you.

without socialism all profiteers and capitalists are redundant.

What on earth does that mean? Socialism is a political and economic doctrine. Are you saying that society can't function without it? Does society not function now?

 

[Purple]

it wasnt that long ago that the Dáil stood in unison to acknowledge the 80,000 Traveller community as an ethnic race, but the 80,000 native Irish speakers are somehow not to be afforded the same status in their own country?

Are you suggesting that people should be afforded an ethnic identity based on their mother tongue and that should be on par with a distinct ethnic group whose identity can be traced back to the bronze age?

 

[Firefly]

without socialism all profiteers and capitalists are redundant.

You've made my day with that one. One of your better ones I must say. Do us all a favour and post your Twitter handle...we could all do with some mind-bending today!

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

B/S according to Wiki 1,500 people in NI speak Irish as their first tongue. I'm ignoring people from the jailtacht like Grizzly. By contrast 30,000 speak Polish. My guess is that more people speak Mandarin.

In NI the Irish thing is very much the counter on one side to the Flags thing on the other. The British government is partly to blame for committing to an ILA in the St Andrews agreement, when will they learn that you should not feed the crocodiles?

As for simple Simon, Varadkar should have known not to give someone from the Rebel County a sensitive NI posting.

 

[TheBigShort]

I don't think many people would disagree with you.

What on earth does that mean? Socialism is a political and economic doctrine. Are you saying that society can't function without it? Does society not function now?

The fabric of a society is based on common aims and goals. The laws of the land are a reflection of the commonality between us all. If we ever get to a free-for-all, do as you please, do as you see fit, type of society then the society will collapse.

Taxation is a form of socialist ideology. The basic premise being that we all need to collectively contribute some of our individual wealth in order to protect and prosper that wealth.

In other words, without the direct and indirect input of all citizens, everything we own individually is worthless. From the clothes on our backs, the food we eat, the roof over our heads – it is a societal collective that facilitates it all, every bit of it. That to me, is socialism.

Are you suggesting that people should be afforded an ethnic identity based on their mother tongue and that should be on par with a distinct ethnic group whose identity can be traced back to the bronze age?

This is to do with the Irish language. It is part of our culture, it is a language that is under threat and needs protecting. We have similar protections here under the Official languages Act. There may only be some 74,000 native speakers, but in the last census, some 1.6m people answered that they had the ability to speak Irish. It is a language that its roots can be traced back to the 3rd and 4th centuries. So just because a small minority only use the language, does not mean we, as a society should just ignore their rights. That is why I used the Traveller comparison, only a small minority, but they deserve their rights to be recognised and protected. The gay community, a small minority, they deserve their rights to be recognised and protected. Native Irish language speakers, a small minority, deserve their rights to be recognised and protected.

B/S according to Wiki 1,500 people in NI speak Irish as their first tongue. I'm ignoring people from the jailtacht like Grizzly. By contrast 30,000 speak Polish. My guess is that more people speak Mandarin.

So what? What is your point?

In NI the Irish thing is very much the counter on one side to the Flags thing on the other

Its not a ‘thing’, not more than the Traveller ethnicity is a ‘thing’, or gay rights is a ‘thing’.
It has nothing to do with flags. It is about basic rights, for Irish language speakers living on the island of Ireland.

The British government is partly to blame for committing to an ILA in the St Andrews agreement,

No they are not to blame for anything re ILA. They were in a set of negotiations that at least one major party, representing its constituency, are mandated to pursue an ILA. Another major party, as facilitators of those negotiations, namely the Irish Government, also support the introduction of an ILA in the North. Seeing as it is Ireland, and there is legislative protections of the Irish language in the South, it would be nothing short of hypocrisy for the Irish government not to support an ILA. And it would nothing short of hypocrisy of the British government not to facilitate the democratic will as presented by the elected representatives in Ireland, as it did with Welsh language rights and Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

B/S
Answering some of your points. As oft before I find some of them so obtuse that I suspect I am being trolled.

If 1,500 Irish speakers have the "right" to conduct their affairs with public officials and utilities in Irish do not 30,000 Polish speakers have an even greater similar right. Does the Chinese community have similar rights? Or do rights only apply to natives?

I think you know what I mean when I refer to the Irish "thing" or the Flags "thing".

It was this morning's IT where I read that the Brits committed to an ILA. But you have corrected that. This obsession with an ILA is then solely at the jaws of the crocodiles.

If 1.6M people in the census describe themselves as Irish speakers then I'm afraid the census must take its place alongside lies, damned lies and statistics. I did Irish up to NI Junior Cert but no way would I describe myself as an Irish speaker, but I suspect I have more focail than many of that 1.6M.

 

[Jim2007]

This is to do with the Irish language. It is part of our culture, it is a language that is under threat and needs protecting.

It is part of our our historical culture and it is decline because people have neither the need for nor interest in, it. We spent a 100 years trying to turn back the tide on this one and it has not made a blind bit of difference other than delaying the enviable. At this stage it is a hobby project for some people and it should be seen for what it is.

but in the last census, some 1.6m people answered that they had the ability to speak Irish.

And if you asked them if they spoke French they'd probably say yes too. But if you dropped them in the middle of France they'd struggle, just as they would with Irish too. I spent about 14 years learning Irish in total, but it was only when I went to work in an Irish speaking environment that I actually learned to speak it properly. And even then it was a joke, letters sent to government departments or clients had to be translated because our Irish was not good enough and then responses were slow because we had to wait until someone in the dept who's Irish was good enough could answer us.

 

[Firefly]

I spent about 14 years learning Irish in total, but it was only when I went to work in an Irish speaking environment that I actually learned to speak it properly. And even then it was a joke, letters sent to government departments or clients had to be translated because our Irish was not good enough and then responses were slow because we had to wait until someone in the dept who's Irish was good enough could answer us.

Yeah, but look at all the value-added jobs it created!

 

[TheBigShort]

If 1,500 Irish speakers have the "right" to conduct their affairs with public officials and utilities in Irish do not 30,000 Polish speakers have an even greater similar right. Does the Chinese community have similar rights? Or do rights only apply to natives?

Yes they do, if that is their wish. I have no objection to it do you. What they can do is, like the Irish language supporters, is lobby their local representatives for Polish or Chinese or whatever language rights they wish. Their local representatives, if they wish, can make it a priority to establish Polish language rights in Ireland if they wish. They can put this to the public, and if elected, they can present it in policy form in the Dáil. Exactly the same way Irish language activists have lobbied their own public representatives (many of whom are fluent speakers of Irish).

So if you want Polish people to have the same language rights as Irish language speakers, the democratic institutions are open and available to you to pursue it. I certainly wont be objecting if you do.
I suspect they don't, I suspect Polish people are satisfied with having Polish recognized as an official EU language. I suspect that seeing as that part of their culture is not under threat, there is no great impetus on their part for such rights in Ireland.
But by all means, if you wish to pursue it go ahead, I wish you the very best.

I think you know what I mean when I refer to the Irish "thing" or the Flags "thing".

Yes, you are flippantly dismissing the cultural values held by many people on this island. In case you hadn’t noticed, such intolerance has led to bloodshed in the past. Time you opened your mind somewhat to more tolerance.

If 1.6M people in the census describe themselves as Irish speakers then I'm afraid the census must take its place alongside lies, damned lies and statistics. I did Irish up to NI Junior Cert but no way would I describe myself as an Irish speaker, but I suspect I have more focail than many of that 1.6M.

You accuse me of trolling, but then put out this stuff.

Firstly, the 1.6m did not describe themselves as Irish speakers, they described themselves as having the ability to speak Irish. There is a difference, yes it could mean that someone with no more than “Sláinte” class themselves as having the ability to speak Irish, but the critical thing here is the question is open to everyone and you have to ask, why, if most of these 1.6m people cannot actually speak Irish, would they indicate on a census form that they can speak Irish? Are they just bare faced liars as you have implied? In which case then if they lie about that question what else are they lying about? Are you suggesting that the census is actually obsolete, a waste of time?

Or would it by any chance indicate a strong, underlying support to maintain the language, regardless of their ability or lack of ability to speak it? I would suggest it would.
Just because someone cannot do Irish dancing, does not mean they don’t enjoy watching it or that they wouldn’t support government funding to protect and support it.
Just because someone cannot play Irish music, does not mean they don’t enjoy listening to it or that they wouldn’t support government funding to protect and support it.
Just because someone cannot speak Irish, does not mean they don’t appreciate its cultural significance or that they wouldn’t support governemtn funding to protect and support it.

 

[TheBigShort]

Yeah, but look at all the value-added jobs it created!

Yes, and look again at the lack of foresight, the lack of imagination, the lack of any ability to observe and appreciate matters outside of the profit and loss account.
Everything boils down to $$$, like the good free-market capitialist that you are.
Irish traditional music in the 1950's was also on its deathbed, until a little known trad band called The Chieftans re-generated the interest in it. Not only are they Internationally multi-award winning musical performers, the interest in the Irish trad music has never been greater. With it creating jobs, not only in music, but in tourism too. It is a huge pull-factor for tourists to this country.

Irish dancing, has also seen a surge in popularity, in no small part to shows like Riverdance etc. This is also a major pull-factor for tourists to this country and there are thriving international competitions held every year in Irish dancing. Jobs, jobs, jobs.....$$$$$, you should be happy about that.

 

[TheBigShort]

It is part of our our historical culture and it is decline because people have neither the need for nor interest in, it.

Why would 1.6m people indicate in a census that they have the ability to speak Irish, if they neither have the need nor the interest in it?

 

[Purple]

The fabric of a society is based on common aims and goals. The laws of the land are a reflection of the commonality between us all. If we ever get to a free-for-all, do as you please, do as you see fit, type of society then the society will collapse.

You sound like a FG'er law and order man.
I agree; we are a Nation of laws or we are nothing. Without that you'd have people refusing to pay their water charges and socialists encouraging them to break the law.

Taxation is a form of socialist ideology. The basic premise being that we all need to collectively contribute some of our individual wealth in order to protect and prosper that wealth.

No it isn't; socialism is about the people (the "wurker") owning the means of production. Since everyone with half a brain now accepts that that is a stupid idea socialism has morphed into the people owning or controlling or, now, regulating the means of production.

In other words, without the direct and indirect input of all citizens, everything we own individually is worthless. From the clothes on our backs, the food we eat, the roof over our heads – it is a societal collective that facilitates it all, every bit of it. That to me, is socialism.

Fair enough but it's a very a la carte version of socialism.

This is to do with the Irish language. It is part of our culture, it is a language that is under threat and needs protecting. We have similar protections here under the Official languages Act. There may only be some 74,000 native speakers, but in the last census, some 1.6m people answered that they had the ability to speak Irish. It is a language that its roots can be traced back to the 3rd and 4th centuries. So just because a small minority only use the language, does not mean we, as a society should just ignore their rights. That is why I used the Traveller comparison, only a small minority, but they deserve their rights to be recognised and protected. The gay community, a small minority, they deserve their rights to be recognised and protected. Native Irish language speakers, a small minority, deserve their rights to be recognised and protected.

The Brehon Laws are also part of our historical culture but we don't use them any more.
I absolutely reject the notion that Irish speakers are somehow more Irish than non-Irish speakers. It's 200 years since anyone in my family spoke Irish as a first language. It is not part of my Irish identity. We protect Irish speakers in that we do not oppress them of discriminate against them. Not facilitating them is not the same as discriminate against them. Should Shelta (Cant) also be a protected language? What about Ullans (Ulster-Scotts)?

 

[odyssey06]

Why would 1.6m people indicate in a census that they have the ability to speak Irish, if they neither have the need nor the interest in it?

Because they weren't asked if they need it or have an interest in it, they were asked if they had the ability?

 

[Jim2007]

Why would 1.6m people indicate in a census that they have the ability to speak Irish, if they neither have the need nor the interest in it?

Because that was not the question they were asked.

 

[TheBigShort]

The Brehon Laws are also part of our historical culture but we don't use them any more.
I absolutely reject the notion that Irish speakers are somehow more Irish than non-Irish speakers. It's 200 years since anyone in my family spoke Irish as a first language. It is not part of my Irish identity. We protect Irish speakers in that we do not oppress them of discriminate against them. Not facilitating them is not the same as discriminate against them. Should Shelta (Cant) also be a protected language? What about Ullans (Ulster-Scotts)?

Brehon laws are part of our culture and we don't use them any more – but if you, or anybody else, wishes to advocate a return to using those laws, you are protected in your rights to pursue that matter through the democratic process.

I absolutely reject the notion that Irish speakers are somehow more Irish than non-Irish speakers. Its about 70 years since Irish was a native language in my family. My grandmother on my mothers side grew up in an all-Iirsh speaking household in east Kerry.

It is part of my identity. I have intermediate Irish as measured by the NUI. I am not a native speaker nor fluent, but it is a big part of identity, historically and culturally.

The issue raised was of ILA in NI. Anyone who uses and supports the Irish language in this country will know that there is widespread support for its preservation and its progress. The problem is that we have not developed a program to effectively reverse the decline in native speakers. It is not just an Irish problem, it is extremely difficult to reverse the use of minority languages when in decline. That is recognised internationally.

 

[Firefly]

Everything boils down to $$$, like the good free-market capitialist that you are.

I believe in a free market economy for the majority of things yes, but I also believe in having a fit for purpose and affordable government that can educate and protect us. That would put me to the right of centre I guess, aligned with FG thinking I suppose, but far from a free-market capitalist.

Irish traditional music in the 1950's was also on its deathbed, until a little known trad band called The Chieftans re-generated the interest in it. Not only are they Internationally multi-award winning musical performers, the interest in the Irish trad music has never been greater. With it creating jobs, not only in music, but in tourism too. It is a huge pull-factor for tourists to this country.

Irish dancing, has also seen a surge in popularity, in no small part to shows like Riverdance etc. This is also a major pull-factor for tourists to this country and there are thriving international competitions held every year in Irish dancing. Jobs, jobs, jobs.....$$$$$, you should be happy about that.

And well done to both the Chieftans and Riverdance who both spotted lucrative markets that ensured their offerings were desired by people willing to pay for them...market forces in other words. Perhaps the Chieftans and Riverdance might have continued to produce what they did in a socialist state but I would have my doubts. In any case, I fail to see how these examples relate to the issues the OP posted about?

For the record, I hated Irish in school and tought it a complete waste of time at the time. However I think differently now. I think it should be cherished as our national language. Yes it may not be used internationally and the rest but look how proud the Welsh are of their language. I'm not sure of the solution, but one thing that's certain regarding young people, if someone could make it cool it would take off.