Ah so it’s an inside job; he gave his medical expertise for guidelines but obviously this means they didn’t consult anyone else and listened to his moral rather than medical facts.
Thankfully they don’t really on members of the public to yay or nay medical guidelines. I, for one, am thankful for that. What did you expect, Dr. Monaghan and his evil cronies to go re-write the guidelines off their own bat, ignoring the legal status of the matter. Again I am thankful they can’t do that.
Again doctors can’t really make up their own rules and laws as they go, they do have to consult with the applicable laws of the land etc.
I never said he was a legal expert. I stated clearly that he, along with other medical professionals could only draw up guidelines within the current legal standing on abortion, not change it. You seem confused on this, please read my comment again.Medical guidelines Dr. Monaghan is medical expert not a legal expert, so the medical guidelines he helped draft are not the law in Ireland. That's what I mean about them amounting to naught legally. The 1800's act, the constitutional amendment and the Supreme court judgement are the law on abortion in Ireland.
Whats your point here? Are you still trying to get me to pin my colours to a mast and as you put it “I want everyone who speaks on this matter to declare their agenda before they speak”Two Masters at two of Ireland leading maternal hospitals have confirmed that this is a grey area. The anti- abortions have been very clear that it is in fact not a grey area. Who do you think is correct?
You comment
“Or was it FORNICATION that caused this mess you find yourself in”
My reply to this is :
In fact I have absolutely nothing to say to that comment, it makes its own comment quite adequately.
You have assumed that termination would’ve saved her despite, by your own admission, you are not a medical expert. Despite the contorted and insensitive tale you tried to spin in post #231; you don’t know the facts of this case. Nobody does and I think we should wait the results of the relevant investigations prior to jumping to conclusions.My emotions on this topic - Savita Halappanavar, refused termination, dead in the leading maternal hospital in the west of Ireland
She was refused medical tests or abortion? And the fact that the tests then went ahead and she is not dead shows that they did consider the life of the mother. I don’t see how this adds weight to your argument?- Grainne, audience of Primetime this week, 7 weeks pregnant, physically appeared as though she was 6 months pregnant due to major internal problems, refused medical tests due to being pregnant, finally they went in, if they didn't she too would be dead
- Joe Duffy's Liveline, too many real women's stories to list
- Michelle Harte, pregnant, ill with cancer, refused cancer treatment due to pregnancy, her consultant wanted to abort but couldn’t due to the grey area, so an 'ad hoc' ethics committee was formed to decide, abortion refused, she had to be physically helped onto a plane to the UK to get an abortion. She too is dead as is her unborn child.
an unfortunate case I think this highlights more the social stigma at the time of being pregnant so young and out of wedlock. However, if I recall correctly (and I’m open to correction on this), her life wasn’t in danger from the pregnancy, it was due to exposure and lack of medical supervision.- Anne Lovett, pregnant young teenager, died giving birth alone in a cold graveyard, no one knew she was pregnant
- Joanne Hayes, hiding a shameful pregnancy, gave birth probably alone, buried baby in garden, Gardaí found another baby a few miles away, accused her of murdering the second baby, initially they wouldn't look where she said her actual baby was buried, and later when they did tried to 'medically' prove they were twins. Result 2 dead babies that were found and a women left traumatised forever.
This is hyperbole; you seem to suggest the country was awash with dead babies all over the country now?There were of course many other dead babies all over the Irish countryside. As far as I recall the infamous Kerry babies tribunall didn't go into that.
You can be ashamed of yourself for whatever reasons all you want, but as an Irish person I don’t you to parade around as being ashamed on my behalf thank you.I am not emotional I am ashamed of the above, and ashamed of myself for not having done more on this issue and ashamed of Irish people who continue to allow it to happen.
We don’t export this issue. That is a false and misleading phrase. The UK is the nearest country that happens to permit terminations up to a certain stage.Exporting the problem to the UK is shameful
Judging by post #231, no I don’t think you are being rational. You seem to want a quick fix turn around to somehow save face an appease Mr. Halappanavar.Even if I were emotional on this topic, so what, I'm an emotional woman. Why is that thrown at me as though there is something wrong with being emotional. Do you think that being emotional means I'm not rational?
Social abortions
I recognise that some women are not careful and get themselves pregnant.
Well at least you can recognise that is a reality; I’m afraid truthseeker finds that an unbelievable situation.There is nothing going to stop people getting pregnant and having an abortion to deal with that.
There is really no debate to be had with someone who actually thinks that a woman would blithely be only too happy to get rid of the life they have created
I would’ve thought that was a given at this stage. Did you recently discover this and feel it had to be shared with the group?(btw they didnt create it on their own, there would have been a man involved too).
Well it was hardly a pack of wild donkeys or couple of prawns that went down the wrong way now was it.I note that you never once mentioned that it was a man that got them pregnant.
I did not refer to it as fornication in that sense, please don’t contort my words. It was clearly a acerbic statement I made.Where is the man's responsibility in this 'fornication' as you refer to it as.
But the line between a social abortion and abortion to preserve the life of the mother is not as clear cut as you make it. On the other thread you highlight this yourself- your friend who was 15 and pregnant wanted abortion, feigned suicidal thoughts and got the result she wanted.There is no solution to this but this is not a justification for not allowing abortion in rape, incest, foetal abnormality, cancer/illness etc. in a pregnant woman.
Yes frankly, some were. Obviously they were, you even referred to them as shameful pregnancies. These women did not intend to have children with their sexual partner yet found themselves pregnant.Do you think that because some women are as you put it 'too damn naïve and irresponsible', that is an answer to the women I listed above.
Anne Lovett possibly. It was an unwanted pregnancy, she was very young and it was obviously also a case of statutory rape. You have accepted above that social abortions (is this the correct phrase?) are a part of society, this was an unfortunate example of this.Was Anne Lovett too damn naïve and irresponsible? Or Michelle Harte, or Savita Halappanavar.
Society playing God
At present abortions are permitted as the result of a medical intervention performed to save the life of the mother. At present the Irish people also value the life of the unborn and attempt to preserve both.Isn't that what the doctors in Ireland do when they weight up the life of a mother versus the life of the unborn?
Symposium
Can you tell me who the 140 experts at this conference were ?
Can you show me the 'Dublin Declaration' signed by all the leading medical experts at this conference?
Can you show me where the new medical findings have been peer reviewed?
This sentence makes no sense.Can you show me where the 'medical findings' that abortion is never necessary to save a mother's life is documented as fact in a leading medical publication such as the Lancet?
Maybe it's high time the public were consulted on what goes into the Medical guidelines. And to answer your question on whether the doctors who wrote the guidelines ignore the law. Prof O' Dwyer seems to think so. And of course he has nothing to do with Dr. Monaghan, who just happens to be one of those who did write the guidelines.
Thank you, I will ensure to inform you when I don't bother to read your response.tldr - except the last bit.
There is really no debate to be had with someone who actually thinks that a woman would blithely be only too happy to get rid of the life they have created (btw they didnt create it on their own, there would have been a man involved too).[/QUOTE]tldr - except the last bit.
I never said this. The fact is some women do not want to continue a pregnancy, not for medical reasons but for their own reasons. May be social stigma, maybe they won't be able to tell who the father was etc. You don't honestly accept me to believe that everyone of the women who "had" to go to England to avail of abortion facilities there do so for purely medical reasons.Seriously - is this what you think? Do you think any woman chooses to pay the financial, emotional and physical cost of travelling to another country to undergo a medical procedure easily and as though its no big deal?)
What sort of argument is this? You are tryin to tell me that no woman has ever just wanted rid of her unborn due to personal situation - result of an affair / possibility of not knowing the father / financial insecurity etc. Am I insinuating that this is the case for every woman? Not at all. The sad reality is, this happens. One may see it as choosing to do with ones body as one pleases, but to counter that one is also choosing to end the life of another body.If thats really what you think, I can only conclude you really dont know anything about women or abortion at all.
My apologies, that phrase is incorrect. I was not using it as some sort of "morality mallet" to beat either your or Bronte with; merely refering to it (incorrectly) as the opposite of the pro-life choice.btw the correct term is pro-choice, pro-abortion is an inaccurate term which implies that abortion is the correct choice in all circumstances), there is no element of use and abuse if something is a choice. Its only when you are trying to make someone feel that they are morally wrong that that term is relevant.
Broadsheet.ie has a little something special from Prof O'Dwyer here . I suppose you could argue his quotes were taken out of conext or in reference to a 14 year-old girl being raped by her neighbour and becoming pregnant he actually called it "consensual, an act of unlawful carnal knowledge".
That's quite an extraordinary document. Prof O' Dwyer has actually written that the infamous rape victim Ms. X got pregnant 'after consensual intercourse with a grown man.' The perpetrator in that case was jailed for rape, how can he write that it was consensual. After all she went though he would tell untruths about what happened to her. Has he no morals about writing such an untruth.
This highlights the point I made previously; abortion being used as a get out for a “shameful pregnancy”. The mothers’ life was in no danger; it was a murder of convenience for her. If the first child had not been found on the beach, it is quite possible that she would’ve gotten away with murder. Plain and simple.
.
This is hyperbole; you seem to suggest the country was awash with dead babies all over the country now?
Michelle Harte was a clear cut medical intervention required to preserve the mothers life at the detriment to the life of her unborn child.
If this case was so clear cut why was the lady denied an abortion in Ireland?
Because her life was not in immediate danger. I say it was clear cut in that it is a clear case whereby this debate is relevant;
Do you not think she should have been allowed an abortion?
And Bullbars do you think she should have been allowed an abortion?
I see that Hilary Clinton has mentioned abortion while giving a speech in Dublin last week. I cannot find the speech anyone have a link?
I must say I commend Gabriel Byrne and other Irish ex pats for lobbying her on this issue
Does Gabriel Byrne know something we don't? Does he have information that an abortion would have saved her?
If he's concerned that's one thing. Piggy backing on the latest tragedy even though the details are not clear is a dicgrace and he shouldn't be given a pat on the back for it.Maybe he's just concerned ..
.... women in Ireland where it's not legally clear to a woman when and if and where she can have an abortion despite waiting 20 years for legal clarity?
Nor is it clear who will perform abortions nor is it clear who can make that decision, other than the fact that it is clear the women herself cannot make any decision on it.
Do you think if an abortion would have saved her life that she should have been entitled to one.
Answer my previosu questions before I will answer that.
Was her life in jeoparfy due to the pregnancy?
Was the cancer terminal irregardless of an abortion?
It's not a yes and no answer
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