It was as clever as it needed to be to get your answer which I think is basically 'as long as there's a heartbeat and the mother's life is not obviously at risk, press on with the pregnancy'?
It was as clever as it needed to be to get your answer which I think is basically 'as long as there's a heartbeat and the mother's life is not obviously at risk, press on with the pregnancy'?I'm not a medical person but your question may not be as clever as you think.
The other relevant point of course is that only 17% of Africans are Catholics. (2005 figures) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Africa
Of course; these are evolving situations.It was as clever as it needed to be to get your answer which I think is basically 'as long as there's a heartbeat and the mother's life is not obviously at risk, press on with the pregnancy'?
No-one is saying they are the cause of it, or that if they changed it would magically cure it, but their stance certainty aint helping. Its just another example of the dis-connect between CC and the real world, sure even their own clergy are starting to say it. I think the "fix" is more that their influence hold less sway than actually trying to talk them around to some pragmatism/realism.
I would trust that the clinical team would endeavour to sustain the pregnancy where practical but that care for the mother would be paramount.
I think that is it responsible of him to point out that the two Hospitals are not linked; some could make that leap of the imagination and incorrectly label them as being at fault also.George was at pains to point out that Portinucula, Co. Galway is in no way linked to Galway Hospital
So women should fear going to hospital and that Irish Doctors are some sort of saw-bone quacks? What happened was a tragedy and should not have happened, however is this happening every week at a high rate?The ostensible point of the interview was to prove that us women are well served by Irish doctors and have nothing to fear.
What was not pointed out is that there is indeed a link between John Monaghan and the Galway hospital. The Chair of the Symposium just happens to be Prof Eamonn O' Dwyer, Professor Emeritus Gynaecology & Obstetrics at of all places NUI Galway. They are both on the Irish Medical Council and both a member of the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecologists.
What was the conclusion of the conference:
As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.
When you're up against apparent spin in the national media and indeed hidden agendas would anyone be surprised that Mr. Haleppenavar doesn't want any medical professional from the county of Galway on the enquiry.
Your ostensible point coming across is that women should go to Irish doctors in fear, to be judged, butchered and slung out the back door all because of their morals on that day.
I think that is it responsible of him to point out that the two Hospitals are not linked; some could make that leap of the imagination and incorrectly label them as being at fault also.
So you think the Galway city hospital is at fault in some way?
I think that is it responsible of him to point out that the two Hospitals are not linked; some could make that leap of the imagination and incorrectly label them as being at fault also.
What I mean by link is the following:
Galway City Hospital
Galway City hospital is known locally as the Regional, its proper titles University Hospital Galway (UHG) or University College Hospital or University College Hospital Galway (UCHG) - take your pick
Galway university
Now known as NUI Galway. National University of Ireland, Galway, previously known as UCG, University College Galway.
The hospital and the university are literally across the road from one another
and in the West of Ireland NUIG is the medical training school for doctors/ nurses/etc having therefore a School of Medicine and that teaching takes place in the university and in the hospital.
Both the hospital and the university are therefore completely intertwined.
Link between Portinucula hospital and Galway Hospital
As I'm not a medical person I don't know of the medical links if any between the two.
Teaching at a University does not mean Dr. Monaghan has any say or influence on hospital procedures. He teaches a set syllabus at the University.But Dr. Monaghan did not clarify on the radio yesterday that he is on the teaching staff of NUIG. That I think is amazing, why not just state there is no link between his hospital Portinucula and Galway hospital but there is a link between him and NUIG.
I doubt if Prof O' Dwyer is still lecturing etc due to his age but on the Symposium he lists himself as Professor Emeritus. He was Chair of the symposium and Dr. Monaghan was a speak at that symposium.
The two men are linked also on two different bodies.
In addition and it was not pointed out on the radio yesterday, Dr. Monagan helped draft the 2009 medical guidelines on abortion. Some people might be surprised to learn, as I was that they amount to one solitary page.
On my reading of them, and someone might correct me too on this, they amount to naugt.
I do wish the courts would stop interfering in our lives. Why yesterday I caught my neighbour cycling with no light, now the courts say I shouldn’t have knocked him down to teach him a lesson him but again here’s where we disagree.So we are basically left with the Supreme Court judgement etc. Not very helpful to women to know their rights or doctors their duty. I have been amazed in the past week with the medical professionals telling us that the situation of what to do is absolutely cristal clear to them. How can it be if we have no legislation. No doctor has pointed out that their medical guidelines do not carry any legal weight (also open to correction on this).
Catholic ethos of Hospital
As far as I know there is no official Catholic ethos at Galway in the formal sense. It was never run by a religious order (I'm open to correction on this). But this does not mean that the staff of particularly Irish origin are statistically bound to be coming from traditional Catholic stock. I have no issue with anyone's religion but it is naive to assume that a hospital or indeed any institution in Ireland is not 'Catholic' just because it is not officially so.
Symoposium
It is quite clear to me that this conference was run to a specific agenda. To prove that abortion is never necessary to save a pregnant women.
So from my reading of it medical professionals who had an anti abortion agenda held a conference to prove this very 'fact'.
I’m glad to see you’re medical training trumps the training of those 140 professionals and you can just summarise their expertise, experience research and conclusions in one word.Medically, and as previously stated I'm not medically, trained their 'Dublin Declaration' is nonsense.
They haven’t denied that. You are just spelling out that subsequent to further research, there are now other options. Again doctors can’t really make up their own rules and laws as they go, they do have to consult with the applicable laws of the land etc. Frankly I think we’re better to stay with this. If something needs changed then consult with all of us. I know this doesn’t fit well with your argument but why let the facts get in the way eh. Just keep shouting “nonsense, with fingers in ears and it’ll be fine.Abortion is absolutely sometimes necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman. These occurances are rare.
Fear of Irish doctors
You may be assured that one should have a healthy respect for the power of doctors when you are in a life or death situation. I did not give birth in Ireland, and I've had both natural and caesarian. But I do have siblings and relations who have given birth in Ireland, including the Galway hospital. Like truthseeker I too was judged when young and to live it is to know it. Luckily for various reasons I knew where to go. So my fear is deeply held. I've seen what Neary did, I've seen what happened over the years in various horrific stories that I'm not going to go into on here.
It's my belief that if Ms. Halappanavar had been Irish she would have had a better chance because they didn't 'get it' about Catholic Ireland.
Her husband should have screamed blue murder or called in another professional
or called in a relation who was a doctor to get on the case
or got in a taxi and gone to another hospital.
You’re just being patronising now. The little uneducated Indian was put in the cupboard and told not to speak?That's what an educated Irish person would have done. They were probably too polite or trusting to do so.
And how is he a good solicitor in your legal opinion. If legal training is the same as medical, I’ll just ignore that comment.Most unfortunately for him, and he's being helped by a good Irish solicitor, he gets it now.
Unfortunately, laws guidelines, rules etc. usually arrive from necessity after the fact. Countries are rarely formed with a full set of guidelines that will never have to be re-addressed according to changes in society. Otherwise we’d still be in the dark ages.But it's too late. But maybe not too late for the rest of us. 30 years is too long.
I’m sure he’ll appreciate your medical opinions – research = nonsense.So I support him every step of the way.
This is an extremely contentious issue and I want everyone who speaks on this matter to declare their agenda before they speak.
Out of respect for Ms. Halappanavar. And I think I've a right as an Irish women who has given birth to know what agendas other people have for me and other Irish women.
It’s an independent station with a Journalist expressing and opinion; As that differs from your opinion it is to be considered “spin” and “Hidden agenda’s”. To add to that because they are male, they are arrogant and talking down to you.Newstalk broadcasts to the nation so to me it is the national airwaves
I've not seen Primetime but I did hear part of the interview.
What must it be like to lose your wife and unborn child, believing that if the doctors had intervened earlier she, your beloved wife, could have been saved.
Again the relevance of this? It’s as if you are trying to ghost write for the gentleman to add weight to your argument.Believing maybe that you'd done something wrong, believing maybe if you'd taken her to another hospital she could have been saved. After the trauma of that, after being comforted by the hospital staff, after having to arrange to transport your wife's body back to India.
This was mentioned in the media, and if true, was wrong, very wrong.After having to get a death certificate to allow transportation of the body, a death certificate that was difficult to obtain,
You know nothing of what happened. Do you think this is some sort of novella you’re conjuring up here? It’s more disrespectful than anything else.and then arriving in India to your parents and family and your wife's family. How would you explain that you were in a first world country and that your wife had died for lack of basic medical attention. How for two weeks you were questioned by your own family and hers on every minutiae of every detail of every moment of your one week of hell, of your life ahead without her and what might have been and of your exhaustion and trauma of bringing her body home.
Do you know he expected a resolution in the space of a few weeks? This is not the type of legislation we need knee-jerk reaction on.And you were sure before you left Ireland that something would be done about what happened and you had been assured it would be so, and you told this every day to your family and to hers and every day nothing.
So Mr. Hallappanavar has cracked now? I was actually admiring his dignified and calm response to all of this. You are insulting the man now.So finally you cracked
you realised actually they are going to do nothing, and actually those that are telling you they would have an inquiry, have while you were gone done nothing, and you'd slowly realise that those who told you there would be an inquiry, they were actually the ones responsible for what happened.
Or get a solicitor on board, a good solicitor by your accounts. Realise that the inquiry will take more than a week and a quick fire ‘hang ‘em all’ at dawn inquisition. I’d prefer if the right people were installed on the panel with careful consideration, records compiled, witnesses etc. etc. you know to ensure the truth was uncovered.What would you do, what could you do. What should you do. What is one man against a whole establishment and against forces of which you know nothing about.
How exactly? I think the outpouring of emotion by the public alone has shown that this has also greatly affected the populace.Well then Ireland and the HSI has underestimated poor brave Praveen Halappanaver.
Wait, I thought he cracked in the last chapter of this shocking tale you’ve conjured.He had kept his dignified silence in the midst of his grief
Hold on, in chapter 1, the national media had hidden agendas and spin etc. now they are in cahoots? I smell a mackerel.and he in memory of his wife spoke to the only outlet he had, the Irish Times.
Right about what now??And was he right, oh so right as been proved by the actions of the HSE, the Minister for Health, James Reilly, the Department of Health,
Is it not more sincere for the leader of the country to express his sympathy directly or should he also have gone through the Irish Times, as that was the only outlet he had.even to our eternal shame our Taoiseach Enda Kenny, who in a most unedifying manner yesterday in the Dail appealed over his chosen mode of communication via his solicitor, directly to the man himself.
It’s more insulting that you’ve drafted this tale of woe out of thin air. You seem to think that by conjuring this tale, this emotional diatribe, you somehow have a kinship with the victim? It’s deplorable. Ashamed to be Irish over this, pray tell which nation without sin will you profess love for tomorrow so?How insulting that the leader of our country could make such a spectacle of himself. That he should say to that poor grieving man, 'I know you are a decent man.' What is wrong with politicians that they would do such a thing. How ashamed I was yesterday to be Irish.
Your ‘tale of woe’ has been up there with the most insulting comments I have seen.How ashamed I've been to see comments about India, most grievous comments made about the grieving husband and his motives. Unprintable comment. Shocking comment. Insulting comment.
Yes of course we are. This one incident has sent us right back to the dark ages.It is true, we are medieval and barbaric.
Well why didn’t you bring it up sooner so?And until we stand up to this we have progressed not one jot from the mind-set that went before.
What has being Irish got to do with it? How has it come to what exactly? It isn’t then end of the world. Hyperbole of the highest order.Last night I kissed my lovely Irish children in their beds and thought how has it come to this.
Who installed those leaders? Why aren’t you one of the ‘leaders’ so if they have failed us. Also who installs these leaders?How again have our leaders failed us. How have we failed by allowing that failure to continue. That's why I've commented on here, but I guess I'm talking to myself.
I also note the women going for abortions in these are always making it under severe stress/duress or in dire medical needs – It never get’s floated that Some women might just be too damn naive and irresponsible and only too happy to get rid of the life they’ve created. Doesn’t really fit the bill for pro-abortionists that it might be a facility used and abused by some. Not a statement but something that should be brought in to consideration.
The Chair of the Symposium just happens to be Prof Eamonn O' Dwyer, Professor Emeritus Gynaecology & Obstetrics at of all places NUI Galway. They are both on the Irish Medical Council and both a member of the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecologists.
tldr - except the last bit.
All these questions must be answered. Not just a quick fix to suit the recent events.
George Hook interview with John Monaghan, Consultant, Portinucula Hospital Monday the 19th Nov
I felt I was in a time warp yesterday when I heard this interview. Busy doing the kids dinner and listening to this, but I really felt we had gone back 30 years with two arrogant men talking down to us mere plebs. If anyone else heard it could they confirm that I have not misunderstood the programme.
George launched into an attack on India, and an extraordinary outburst on Clare Daly, with radio clips to I think prove that she is some kind of crazy warrior for women - really brings one back to what went before when this all started 3 decades ago.
I really sat up and listened when he interview John Monaghan, Gyn & Obe. George was at pains to point out that Portinucula, Co. Galway is in no way linked to Galway Hospital, but the name John Monaghan rang a bell with me as I had studied abortion last week and amazing enough John Monaghan was a speaker at a symposium on the 8th Sept held in Dublin. Here is a link to the Irish times article on the symposium (conference).
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0910/1224323797477.html
The ostensible point of the interview was to prove that us women are well served by Irish doctors and have nothing to fear. That India is a 3rd world country in comparison with us and that we need to fear the likes of Clare Daly. It was brain washing of the highest order in my opinion.
What was not pointed out is that there is indeed a link between John Monaghan and the Galway hospital. The Chair of the Symposium just happens to be Prof Eamonn O' Dwyer, Professor Emeritus Gynaecology & Obstetrics at of all places NUI Galway. They are both on the Irish Medical Council and both a member of the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecologists.
What was the conclusion of the conference:
As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.
Now come on George you can do better than that, you could have pointed out that John Monaghan is indeed linked to Galway Hospital via his relationship with Prof O' Dwyer and both according to the Irish times article are anti-abortion campaigners. When you're up against apparent spin in the national media and indeed hidden agendas would anyone be surprised that Mr. Haleppenavar doesn't want any medical professional from the county of Galway on the enquiry.
I'm not a fan of George Hook (in the same way I'm not a fan of being burned alive) but I agree with him on this. I think that's a first for me.
Broadsheet.ie has a little something special from Prof O'Dwyer here . I suppose you could argue his quotes were taken out of conext or in reference to a 14 year-old girl being raped by her neighbour and becoming pregnant he actually called it "consensual, an act of unlawful carnal knowledge".
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