About to pay voluntary UK national insurance contributions

[Lisgoold]

Why would @ATC110 need to "find out"?

The criteria are the criteria and unless the rules change then an eligible claimant can get both UK and Irish state pensions.

Here is a thread where two posters claim they are in receipt of both.

Here is a Dáil debate from thirty years ago where it is clear you can receive both:

Many thanks for those links. The debate one does specify, living in Ireland. So I wonder if that is also one of the criteria.

My doubt about it, is simply down to the conversations I've had with the international pensions people in Newcastle, as they simply said they didn't know. Plus the face to face meeting I had at the Intreo office in Cork. When I showed them the PRSI record, which is 887 A1 contributions, they simply said they didn't know, and it would depend on the rules when the time comes....

Now that's fair enough, as they can't see into the future. But they wouldn't comment on whether it would be eligible under current rules at the time.

Whether I use the old or new way of calculating, it does qualify. I'm not sure which date they mean 'started paying social insurance' date. As in, Ireland or UK. But either date would still qualify. Though the average would be much better using the Ireland start date!

Anyway, thanks for the info, and hopefully you're right. Though I'm still not inclined to gamble on finishing early, and using 30 or 40 grand of savings to get through to state pension age !

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

Many thanks for those links. The debate one does specify, living in Ireland. So I wonder if that is also one of the criteria.

As far as I know once you meet the criteria for a contributory pension in both jurisdictions you can be living on the Moon!

When I showed them the PRSI record, which is 887 A1 contributions, they simply said they didn't know, and it would depend on the rules when the time comes....

This is the standard response that "We don't do forecasts".

My doubt about it, is simply down to the conversations I've had with the international pensions people in Newcastle, as they simply said they didn't know.

Of course they don't know or care! All they care about is whether you are eligible for a UK state pension on a contributory basis or not. There are hundreds of other foreign pension arrangements for people who've lived and worked in the UK in the past.

 

[Gervan]

Whether I use the old or new way of calculating, it does qualify. I'm not sure which date they mean 'started paying social insurance' date. As in, Ireland or UK. But either date would still qualify. Though the average would be much better using the Ireland start date!

I receive a 2/3 UK pension (could only back pay for 6 years and at Class 3, still worth it) and full Irish pension.
I moved to Ireland in 1999, and until the rules change , that is the "started paying social insurance" date for working out the average. UK date irrelevant.

I am embarrassed that some of my Irish friends, who started work as teenagers, but then have gaps in their social insurance record, receive less than a full pension.

 

[ATC110]

I moved to Ireland in 1999, and until the rules change , that is the "started paying social insurance" date for working out the average. UK date irrelevant.

Could you explain this?
Thanks

 

[Marc]

Could you explain this?
Thanks

The Irish state pension is averaged from when you first started paying PRSI.

So if I rock up in Ireland aged 57 I could easily have a full pension aged 67 whereas my wife who had a part time job in SuperValu aged 17 would be heavily penalised.

 

[ATC110]

The Irish state pension is averaged from when you first started paying PRSI.

So if I rock up in Ireland aged 57 I could easily have a full pension aged 67 whereas my wife who had a part time job in SuperValu aged 17 would be heavily penalised.

I understand that, I mean the sentence quoted specifically-it doesn't make sense

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

So if I rock up in Ireland aged 57 I could easily have a full pension aged 67

How would you accumulate enough credits for a full pension in ten years?

 

[ATC110]

How would you accumulate enough credits for a full pension in ten years?

It’s because of the maximum entry age, minimum contribution period and averaging rule. That person would have an average of 52 contributions per year for 10 years from age 57.

The TCA is much fairer.

 

[Gervan]

I understand that, I mean the sentence quoted specifically-it doesn't make sense

So 1999 was the date I started working here and paying Irish social insurance. Sorry if that was unclear. I wasn't saying 1999 was the relevant date for everyone.

I think when the rules change it will be based on total contributions/credits over your lifetime, which is much fairer.

 

[basilbrush]

@jasdpace@gmail. Did you find out yet whether payment of voluntary national insurance contributions for years when you were working abroad can be paid at class 2 (instead of class 3) even when paid in arrears?

Also, does anyone know whether years in which you made the mandatory class S PRSI contribution of Eur 500 because you had unearned income over Eur 5k (but didn't have any other employment) might be classified as "working" for the purposes of UK national insurance voluntary contributions (qualifying for the class 2 rate)?

 

[ATC110]

@jasdpace@gmail. Did you find out yet whether payment of voluntary national insurance contributions for years when you were working abroad can be paid at class 2 (instead of class 3) even when paid in arrears?

I paid Class 2 in arrears but had to prove to HMRC that I was now employed overseas and compulsorily insured

Also, does anyone know whether years in which you made the mandatory class S PRSI contribution of Eur 500 because you had unearned income over Eur 5k (but didn't have any other employment) might be classified as "working" for the purposes of UK national insurance voluntary contributions (qualifying for the class 2 rate)?

You might be better off having two partial pensions rather than combining contributions for one?

 

[basilbrush]

Thank you for the information, @ATC110 . Do you know if it made a difference that you were still employed at the time that you made the payment? If I was working for some years and not working for others, could some years of arrears be paid at class 2 and others at class 3? They sent out an email to me stating what years I could pay voluntary contributions for, and how much they would cost (all at class 3) but never asked if I was working during those years.

I didn't think "combining contributions for one" was possible. My understanding was the only type of "combining" is that years worked in certain other countries could count towards the 10 years needed to qualify for a pension, but the actual amount you receive from any country will only depend on the contributions in that country. So if you work 5 years in the UK and 5 years in Ireland you qualify for a pension from both, but both will only pay you for 5 years of contributions.

In my case I think it might be better to not claim a partial pension from Ireland (and so forgo any benefits from my Irish contributions) as it will cause me to lose the medical card that I would get from having a UK/EU pension without receiving Irish welfare. A medical card might be more valuable than a partial Irish pension.

 

[Feemar5]

My husband has a full contributory Irish State pension and a reduced British one which he paid into. They also gave me a small pension ( based on his contributions) which I got at 60 as that used to be the pension age for women in the UK

 

[ATC110]

Thank you for the information, @ATC110 . Do you know if it made a difference that you were still employed at the time that you made the payment?

Yes, if I hadn't been employed the more expensive Class 3 rate would have applied for ongoing annual payments. It's still a great return though.

If I was working for some years and not working for others, could some years of arrears be paid at class 2 and others at class 3? They sent out an email to me stating what years I could pay voluntary contributions for, and how much they would cost (all at class 3) but never asked if I was working during those years.

I would check with HMRC-I had a combination of Class 2 and 3 in the arrears statement and opted to buy the Class 2 years only based upon having enough time before retirement age to annually buy Class 2 VICs

I didn't think "combining contributions for one" was possible. My understanding was the only type of "combining" is that years worked in certain other countries could count towards the 10 years needed to qualify for a pension, but the actual amount you receive from any country will only depend on the contributions in that country. So if you work 5 years in the UK and 5 years in Ireland you qualify for a pension from both, but both will only pay you for 5 years of contributions.

The DSP pension department will ask if you have worked in the UK or another EU member state and use those contributions for pension calculation purposes. When ready to claim your pension, I would still check if you'd be better off claiming two separate pensions though

In my case I think it might be better to not claim a partial pension from Ireland (and so forgo any benefits from my Irish contributions) as it will cause me to lose the medical card that I would get from having a UK/EU pension without receiving Irish welfare. A medical card might be more valuable than a partial Irish pension.

If your medical card is subject to a means test, the UK pension will form part of that though?

 

[basilbrush]

use those contributions for pension calculation purposes.

There is an example on https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/living-and-working-overseas where someone who worked for 7 years in the UK and 16 years in an EEA country will qualify for a UK pension (as the total is more than 10 years) but the pension they receive from the UK will only be based on the 7 years that they worked there.

Additionally, the Irish DSP says that you can send your information about work in other EEA countries to them and they will apply for the pensions from those countries on your behalf. I am quite sure that it is not possible to instead combine them into one country's pension (you can't get an Irish pension equivalent to 20 years of contributions by combining 10 years in Ireland and 10 years in the UK - only two pensions for 10 years each from Ireland and the UK).

If your medical card is subject to a means test, the UK pension will form part of that though?

The EU pension medical card is not subject to a means test. See "Entitlement under EU Regulations" here:

Medical cards

The medical card scheme entitles certain people to free public health services. This document explains the medical card and how to apply for it.

www.citizensinformation.ie

 

[ATC110]

There is an example on https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/living-and-working-overseas where someone who worked for 7 years in the UK and 16 years in an EEA country will qualify for a UK pension (as the total is more than 10 years) but the pension they receive from the UK will only be based on the 7 years that they worked there.

Additionally, the Irish DSP says that you can send your information about work in other EEA countries to them and they will apply for the pensions from those countries on your behalf. I am quite sure that it is not possible to instead combine them into one country's pension (you can't get an Irish pension equivalent to 20 years of contributions by combining 10 years in Ireland and 10 years in the UK - only two pensions for 10 years each from Ireland and the UK).

There is a bilateral agreement:

If you have worked in Ireland and also in one or more EU states, your social insurance contributions from each EU state will be added to your Irish PRSI contributions to help you to qualify for a social welfare payment, such as a State pension

State Pension (Contributory) pre 2025

The State Pension (Contributory), previously called the old age pension, is paid to people aged 66 and over, who have worked and paid enough social insurance contributions. This page is for people who were born before 1 January 1959 and did not defer claiming their State Pension (Contributory).

www.citizensinformation.ie

See Pro rata EU pension subheading

This also still applies to contributions paid in the UK

The EU pension medical card is not subject to a means test. See "Entitlement under EU Regulations" here:

Medical cards

The medical card scheme entitles certain people to free public health services. This document explains the medical card and how to apply for it.

www.citizensinformation.ie

What about other income/capital you may have?

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

Also, does anyone know whether years in which you made the mandatory class S PRSI contribution of Eur 500 because you had unearned income over Eur 5k (but didn't have any other employment) might be classified as "working" for the purposes of UK national insurance voluntary contributions (qualifying for the class 2 rate)?

Class S from rental income is certainly classified as "compulsory income" for the purposes of the bilateral arrangement with the UK. Class S income is paid by all self-employed people so it kind of has to be counted this way.

 

[basilbrush]

@ATC110 I interpret that to mean that it works the way that I thought it did: EEA contributions can be used to help you qualify for an Irish pension: if they add to more than 10 years you qualify, even if you worked fewer than 10 in Ireland, but you get a pro rata pension from Ireland, proportionate to the number of years you have worked here. The page https://www.citizensinformation.ie/...cial_insurance_contributions_from_abroad.html seems to quite clear on this (in the "How your social insurance contributions under bilateral social security agreements are calculated" section).
.
@NoRegretsCoyote I'll have to call them again, then!

 

[ATC110]

@ATC110 I interpret that to mean that it works the way that I thought it did: EEA contributions can be used to help you qualify for an Irish pension: if they add to more than 10 years you qualify, even if you worked fewer than 10 in Ireland, but you get a pro rata pension from Ireland, proportionate to the number of years you have worked here.

Pro rata pension proportionate to the number of combined contributions paid being less than the required 2080 to qualify for a full contributory state pension.

Apparently the DSP will calculate your pension in the most beneficial way to the claimant.

There are several previous posts discussing this issue in detail.

I would contact the DSP to clarify this.

 

[ClubMan]

Contributory pension PRSI criteria are explained here:

State Pension (Contributory) pre 2025

The State Pension (Contributory), previously called the old age pension, is paid to people aged 66 and over, who have worked and paid enough social insurance contributions. This page is for people who were born before 1 January 1959 and did not defer claiming their State Pension (Contributory).

www.citizensinformation.ie

Social insurance

Social insurance contributions entitle you to a range of benefits administered by the Department of Social Protection.

www.citizensinformation.ie

State Pension (Contributory)

State Pension (Contributory) is a payment which you may qualify for at 66 if you have enough social insurance contributions.

www.gov.ie

State pensions

Your State pension will provide you with a basic level of retirement income, provided you qualify. The State pension is intended to ensure that everyone receives a basic standard of living in retirement. For example the full State Pension (Contributory) currently is €248.30 per week or...

www.pensionsauthority.ie

You can check your PRSI contribution history in MyWelfare:

MyWelfare Homepage

MyWelfare is the online home of welfare services. It allows you easy online access to a range of services

services.mywelfare.ie