A turning point. Trump and Brexit

[Purple]

I think the suppression of English nationalism within the UK is also part of the problem. It’s OK to be proudly Scottish or Welsh but if you are proudly English it means you are some sort of racist yob. It’s probably because they are far and away the dominant nation within the UK but as more people arrive who are proudly Polish or Latvian or Irish the English see their identity diluted and diminished even more and English patriotism being stolen by the extremists. It’s not the UK’s independence day but it’s a clear majority of 50 million English people crying stop to their loss of identity. I have strong sympathies for that position, not withstanding that I think they were wrong to leave the EU as their concerns could have been better addressed in other less self destructive ways.

 

[Purple]

That the EU Constitution was enacted regardless by way of Lisbon Treaty, and that those driving the EU unification project don't care what the peoples of Europe want, should make even the most ardent Europhile uneasy.

I am and it did.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Kind of ironic given how proud they still are of their past empire.

Agreed!

What I'm really trying to understand is what constitutes racism in this whole context so what I'm looking for is whether people believe the views expressed by Daddyman's contact were racist or not (and ideally with a why/why not!)

I think racism is an irrational hatred of people based race, religion, etc.

Daddyman's friend's views are more common than people would expect.

It is a notion about being swamped by immigrants to the detriment of the indigenous population.

That sentiment is certainly not new.

I am old enough to remember the "Rivers of Blood" speech given by Enoch Powell in 1968.

 

[elacsaplau]

In reply to Dellboy....

For the avoidance of doubt, I am just seeking clarity on whether the motivation ascribed to Daddyman's, now infamous, friend is racist or not. I'm struggling with this question myself. But to answer your specific question:

Under Article 1 of the UN's International Convention on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination, racial discrimination is defined as:

"any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."

If we accept this definition, I fail to see how the views expressed do not constitute racial discrimination!

 

[Delboy]

He said he was voting leave because he was fed up of seeing shelves of Polish food in Sainsbury's and that most of the people he knew were voting leave for similar reasons

So the above is now considered racism
And if it is, then that is why we are where we are today...the rise of Trump, Brexit, widescale negativity towards the EU, etc

 

[Purple]

He said he was voting leave because he was fed up of seeing shelves of Polish food in Sainsbury's and that most of the people he knew were voting leave for similar reasons.

When I go to the supermarket the place is full of French, Italian, Chinese and Indian food. The place is owned by the Germans...Bloody foreigners!!

 

[elacsaplau]

So the above is now considered racism

Delboy,

I am just trying to understand what constitutes racism in this context.

Do you accept the UN definition? If yes - does it not follow, that the opinion under review is racist? If you do not accept the definition, please explain why not?

Do you believe Enoch Powell's speech was racist or not?

 

[Delboy]

It appears to raise your head above the parapet and even think about immigration is considered racism in some quarters.
If you keep telling the people to shut about immigration, then don't be surprised when it eventually blows up

I think you already 'understand' what racism is from your own viewpoint (your mind is made up on the subject) and I'm not sure what your trying to tease out here.

I haven't given much thought to Enoch Powell's statement. It would have to be viewed in the context of the time when it was made, the debate then etc.
It has obviously proven to be incorrect so far, at least from the UK side of things

 

[elacsaplau]

I'm not sure what your trying to tease out here.

All I am trying to do is to understand what racism means in this context. I am reflecting on this myself and welcome other people's thoughts. I think it's an extremely complex subject and as a result capable of going in all sorts of directions. That's why I thought it would be interesting to "tease out" one specific definition of racial discrimination from an authoritative source. All I have said for now is that if we accept the UN's definition, I cannot see how the opinion under discussion does not fall under the scope of that definition.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

elac The EU itself blatantly fails that UN test as non EU citizens are discriminated against in terms of their access to the EU. And the same is true of every other political/economic bloc on earth.

So let's get real. Enoch Powell predicted amongst other things that the "black man would get the whip hand over the white man". That was racist. Complaining about too many Polish goods in the supermarket shelves is unjustifiably xenophobic but not racist; I don't think British people regard Poles as being from a different race any more than they think the French are from a different race.

Seeing your wages cut or even losing your job because of unfettered immigration from Eastern Europe is justifiable cause to be resentful but again not racist IMHO.

 

[Gerry Canning]

Liked the original comments by Creemeeg.

Few points.
1. Back in I think 74 , IMF was called into UK.
2. Back in 73 , we were much poorer.
....................
Today
1. Both Islands are much better off .
2. You couldn,t have immigrant issues if EU was a failure.
3. By most measures EU is a success.
4. If the long term success of EU was ( hard Left policies!) , as per one post, then lets have more lefties!
.................
A lot of the (leave) vote seems to have been disaffected people , eg North England, Wales, that have not felt the (success) of London and are trapped into long term welfare dependency.The fault is more likely to be UK government NOT EU ..
The drip ,drip of (blaming ) Europe for the leadership failings in local countries maddens me.

I fear that we also get locked into short term whinging and forget the huge improvements wrought by EU , whilst I acknowledge ,it could do better.

 

[elacsaplau]

the "black man would get the whip hand over the white man". That was racist.

Oh, I don't know - it would have to viewed in the context of the time it was made?

 

[Sophrosyne]

What I'm really trying to understand is what constitutes racism in this whole context so what I'm looking for is whether people believe the views expressed by Daddyman's contact were racist or not (and ideally with a why/why not!)

You pose an interesting question.

The answer has to be nuanced.

People have a right to express their opinions and vent their dissatisfaction. But it depends on proportion.

The worst racism can occur when powerful people take advantage of national frustration.

In England Your England, George Orwell wrote:

“As I write, highly civilized human beings are flying overhead, trying to kill me.

They do not feel any enmity against me as an individual, nor I against them. They are ‘only doing their duty’, as the saying goes. Most of them, I have no doubt, are kind-hearted law-abiding men who would never dream of committing murder in private life. On the other hand, if one of them succeeds in blowing me to pieces with a well-placed bomb, he will never sleep any the worse for it. He is serving his country, which has the power to absolve him from evil.

One cannot see the modern world as it is unless one recognizes the overwhelming strength of patriotism, national loyalty. In certain circumstances it can break down, at certain levels of civilization it does not exist, but as a positive force there is nothing to set beside it.

Christianity and international Socialism are as weak as straw in comparison with it.

Hitler and Mussolini rose to power in their own countries very largely because they could grasp this fact and their opponents could not.”

Trump, Johnson, Farage, et alia have also grasped that fact.

 

[elacsaplau]

elac The EU itself blatantly fails that UN test as non EU citizens are discriminated against in terms of their access to the EU. And the same is true of every other political/economic bloc on earth.

Let's get real, this is immigration policy/controls.

I don't think British people regard Poles as being from a different race any more than they think the French are from a different race.

You seem to believe that racism is exclusively to do with race. I do not agree and believe that it encompasses discrimination on many grounds, including nationality.

The answer has to be nuanced.

Indeed, it does. Interesting observations.

 

[thedaddyman]

When I go to the supermarket the place is full of French, Italian, Chinese and Indian food. The place is owned by the Germans...Bloody foreigners!!

Hi thedaddyman,

Just wondering how you (and others) consider the attitude you described? Specifically, is it racism or something else?

The definition of racism in the Oxford English Dictionary is interesting. It defines racism as
The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races:

To be honest, I don't believe the majority of English people are racist. I lived there for many many years and in all that time only twice did I get a "bloody Paddies" or comments like that and on both occasions it was English people who were more offended and embarrassed them me and who stood up for me (I was more inclined to think a comment like that said more about the person saying it then anything else and would walk away). I was a regular at lower league football grounds, including Milwall on occasions and was never made anything but welcome.

But, I do think English people are seeing their own culture, race and identity being eroded and that most just want a stronger English culture to prevail. I don't believe they think they are superior, I just think that they believe England is becoming less English

 

[elacsaplau]

Hey thedaddyman,

What have you started here?

In my copy of the 1998 edition, the first part of the definition is as you have said, verbatim. However, and importantly, it continues:
"prejudice, discrimination or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief."

Worth noting also that race is defined as:
"a competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc. to see which is the fastest."

I, too, can be selective!

Teasing out Purple's contribution a little, what would we think if your interlocutor had said?

He said he was voting leave because he was fed up of seeing shelves of French, German, Spanish and Portuguese wine in Sainsbury's and that most of the people he knew were voting leave for similar reasons.

It is good that your experience in England has been so positive. Not everyone's experience was so. My father has often told me about his encounters with the NINA mentality, as in, No Irish need apply.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

elac it seems then we are simply engaging in a semantic debate regarding the meaning of the word "racism". We probably actually agree on the attitudes of the British people except that what I describe as xenophobia ranging from the irrational (too many Polish goods on the shelves) to the rational (Eastern European cheap labour undermining living standards) you describe as racism.

I prefer to restrict the term "racism" to the Oxford Dictionary definition. Racism gave us the Holocaust. Xenophobia gave us two World Wars. The former is the more vile ideology albeit the latter can be more destructive. I think we do an injustice to true victims of racism when we get to the stage where, for example, we describe South Dublin jokes about Northsiders as racism.

 

[Betsy Og]

My experience of English people has been 100% positive, didn't work there for too long but often holiday there. Buddies of mine living there for about the last 20 years have said that, in particular post the Norn Iron thing settling down and fading back, that the Irish are seen as pretty much part of "us", inside the tent not outside. The Irish are not seen as "foreign", and no more a curiosity than, say, the Scots. We are one of the "home countries" in most peoples mind. The "No Dogs No Irish" thing is long long ago at this stage and should be bracketed with the Punch articles, to go raking over that is trying to resurrect something that has long died.

I'm surprised the likes of the Polish are getting a hard time, they were the most popular immigrants here, more popular than the Baltics.

If Leave voters thought it was going to make Britain white again they were sorely mistaken, I've walked around parts of London where I was literally the only white guy. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, but these would be, for the most part, 2nd generation, full British citizens, they are not going anywhere regardless of Leave votes.

Finally, people who are not ethnically English generally refer to themselves as British. "English" as such has connotations of being white, rugby & cricket*, tea with the Vicar, Blighty, Albion, empire, England & St. George, WWII and all that - 99% of which your average immigrant has no connection nor wants any connection. So the break up of the UK would be seen as the rise of "Englishness", and not too many of them are into that. How assimilated are all the minorities in England?, not hugely I would think, but I don't necessarily blame the English for that. Irish people like to clan together when abroad (various London neighbourhoods over time, Woodlawn in the Bronx, another spot in Queens), but if you added colour and more pronounced religious divergence into the mix its not hard to see why you get 'parallel universe' stuff on English soil.

*And yes I do know the Pakistani's and others do like their cricket.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Reflection. Teresa May is slight favourite to beat Boris for British PM. Hillary is a stronger favourite to beat The Donald. By Christmas we could have the two leaders of the English Speaking World being females, throw in Angela and I don't want to hear anything more about glass ceilings

On the other hand the ESW could be led by two clowns. Throw in Hollande and I don't want to hear anything more about the merits of democracy.

 

[elacsaplau]

I understand this is complex stuff. All I'm trying to do is to see can we come to a broad understanding of what constitutes racism? Very possibly, we can not.

The Duke, for example, wants to restrict its meaning to the Oxford English definition. That's his prerogative and seems reasonable. Of course, the curiosity is his interpretation of racism is simply inconsistent with what is set out in the said dictionary. We have already shown that racism includes

"prejudice, discrimination or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief."

and if we agree that "race" is defined, amongst other definitions, as: "a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.", the contradictions become clear, as in....

The working class bought into the immigration card big time. This was mainly not racist. The threat was from white immigrants from Eastern Europe.

So when would it be mainly racist?

When they are black.

Apologies, I meant any sort of off white hue.