Pat Rabbitte to resign today?

[Purple]

I mean low grade work following up routine issues for constituents. Correct me if I'm wrong but one of the reasons that we began to pay Councillors was to ensure that they did they looked after the small stuff and the TD's could concentrate on legislation and policy. In addition, each TD was also given a political researcher too to assist in this task. However, it appears that TD's are content to keep the status quo and we are paying councillors and researchers for nothing. I could think of other ways to spend this money.

I agree that our national representatives spend far too much time on local issues but I stand by my comment that your views are offensive and arrogant in that they assume that everyone who votes FF is OK with tax evasion and lobbying of government by interest groups. As the biggest party in the state this is a damning opinion on your country men (and women). I don’t know Ms Flynn and I don’t like what I’ve seen in the media but I am more disturbed by the Irish Independent’s campaign against her than I am about her re-joining Fianna Fail. I have never been to the Galway races but I am just as disturbed by how Labour held fundraisers when Ruairi Quinn was minister for finance where industry leaders were invited to a £1000 a head dinner where they would get close personal access to the minister.
I vote based on which party’s economic policies I support as it seems that the Supreme Court is in charge of the social and moral issues these days. I don't vote for Labour because I don't like their economic policies. If I did like their economic policies I would vote for them, despite their arrogance, moral superiority and the blatant hypocrisy of many of their members.

 

[Green]

I agree that our national representatives spend far too much time on local issues but I stand by my comment that your views are offensive and arrogant in that they assume that everyone who votes FF is OK with tax evasion and lobbying of government by interest groups. As the biggest party in the state this is a damning opinion on your country men (and women). I don’t know Ms Flynn and I don’t like what I’ve seen in the media but I am more disturbed by the Irish Independent’s campaign against her than I am about her re-joining Fianna Fail. I have never been to the Galway races but I am just as disturbed by how Labour held fundraisers when Ruairi Quinn was minister for finance where industry leaders were invited to a £1000 a head dinner where they would get close personal access to the minister.
I vote based on which party’s economic policies I support as it seems that the Supreme Court is in charge of the social and moral issues these days. I don't vote for Labour because I don't like their economic policies. If I did like their economic policies I would vote for them, despite their arrogance, moral superiority and the blatant hypocrisy of many of their members.

I have not stated that everybody who votes for FF is ok with tax evasion. On an earlier post I have stated that you extrapolated incorrectly, a point which you have chosen to ignore! The difficulty for me is that many Irish people are seduced by local issues and what politicans can do for them locally and ignore the bigger regional and national picture.

 

[Purple]

Perhaps he should have joined up with FF and settled down for a drink with the tax evaders in the tent at the Galway Races.

Hmmm.. really, a reflection of us all eh. I never got a supermarket tycoon to pay for my extension or give me a dig out to pay for my extravagant lifestyle..I never went to pub to receive money for my county council vote. You should read Stephen Collins book on FF since Lemass.

I think that a prerequiste for going into Government is that you have a coalition party with whom you are willing & capable of doing business with. PR didn't want to do business with FF but as we have seen they picked up a few tax evaders to help them out along the way.

I think it was your constant reference to the FF tent at the Galway races and tax evaders and FF that gave me that impression, my apologies.
For the record which serving Fianna Fail TD’s do you respect or admire?
I can list them off from all parties. I can also list off the ones I don’t like but I don’t let ideology colour my views.

 

[Green]

I think it was your constant reference to the FF tent at the Galway races and tax evaders and FF that gave me that impression, my apologies.
For the record which serving Fianna Fail TD’s do you respect or admire?
I can list them off from all parties. I can also list off the ones I don’t like but I don’t let ideology colour my views.

I did make reference to certain issues involving FF, ethics and those who they associate with. It is a huge leap to then conclude that a result of these comments that every single FF voter is ok with tax evasion. I might also add that all my comments are facts and not opinion or indeed, extrapolation.

Seamus Brennan, Cecilia Keaveny (now a senator), Sean Flemming, Jim Glennon was also honest in his appraisal of politics when he announced his decision not to seek reelection. I will miss Joe Higgins from the Dail.

 

[gonk]

It is a huge leap to then conclude that a result of these comments that every single FF voter is ok with tax evasion.

Actually, on the basis of the party leader's post-election assessment of Beverly Flynn's character, it's reasonable to conclude that anyone who votes for Fianna Fáil in future is ok with tax evasion. Certainly, Bertie seems to have no problem with it.

 

[Green]

Actually, on the basis of the party leader's post-election assessment of Beverly Flynn's character, it's reasonable to conclude that anyone who votes for Fianna Fáil in future is ok with tax evasion. Certainly, Bertie seems to have no problem with it.

Maybe Bertie will appoint her as Minister for State at the Department of Finance!

 

[MrMan]

Maybe other party members are just better at tax evasion - they don't get caught.

 

[ubiquitous]

Actually, on the basis of the party leader's post-election assessment of Beverly Flynn's character, it's reasonable to conclude that anyone who votes for Fianna Fáil in future is ok with tax evasion.

I don't think that such a conclusion is reasonable at all. Is it reasonable to conclude that anyone who attends a Catholic Church on Sundays is "ok with" child abuse?

 

[gonk]

I don't think that such a conclusion is reasonable at all. Is reasonable to conclude that anyone who attends a Catholic Church on Sundays is "ok with" child abuse?

Not a valid comparison.

The Catholic Church did, of course, grossly mishandle the issue of sexual abuse by clergy in the past, to put it extremely mildly. However it is, I think, now fair to say that it has come to a proper realisation of the gravity of the crime and deals with it accordingly.

With Beverly Flynn, we have a situation where the leader of Fianna Fáil believes a person whom the Supreme Court has found facilitated and encouraged tax evasion and has no reputation worthy of protection should be welcomed back into the party and in time given ministerial office. Bertie has learned nothing, except maybe that his supporters don't give a toss about standards in public office.

 

[ubiquitous]

However it is, I think, now fair to say that it has come to a proper realisation of the gravity of the crime and deals with it accordingly.

Not really evidenced sadly by the reaction of the Irish Christian Brothers last week to the recent publication of the "Fr Moore Report" from the 1960s into Artane Industrial School.

With Beverly Flynn, we have a situation where the leader of Fianna Fáil believes a person whom the Supreme Court has found facilitated and encouraged tax evasion and has no reputation worthy of protection should be welcomed back into the party and in time given ministerial office.

You could surely just as easily say:
"we have a situation where the leader of the Catholic Church believes that persons convicted by the Courts of extreme and cruel sexual and physical abuse of children, and who were found to have facilitated and encouraged others to abuse children, and who have no reputation worthy of protection, should be welcomed back into the Church and be allowed to remain as priests of the Church until the day they die."

Although this statement is true, it does not necessarily follow that "it is reasonable to conclude that anyone who attends a Catholic Church on Sundays is 'ok with' child abuse". Therefore I fail to see how your own statement, quoted above, proves or illustrates that all FF voters are "ok with" tax evasion.

 

[gonk]

Well, we could argue till the cows come home about the institutional Catholic Church's response to child sexual abuse by its clergy - suffice it to say I would agree that, to put it in Bertie's words, there's "a lot done, more to do."

I do not, however, accept the validity of your comparison between a religion and a political party. If one is a convinced Catholic (or indeed an adherent of any other religion) the misconduct of members of the clergy, no matter how vile, does not invalidate one's beliefs in the tenets of the religion. Nor does one choose every few years whether to remain Catholic, or perhaps convert to Buddhism, Judaism or Islam.

By contrast, in a parliamentary democracy such as Ireland, the voters do express in the ballot box at regular intervals a preference for the political parties they want to see in goverment. So long as Bertie Ahern remains leader of Fianna Fáil, I stand over my view that a vote for that party constitutes an implicit endorsement of Bertie's view that Beverly Flynn is a suitable and worthy candidate for ministerial office. If you want Fianna Fáil in power, it necessarily follows that you either approve of or are at least prepared to tolerate Beverly Flynn as a member of the Government.

To push your strained analogy with the Catholic Church to its logical conclusion, Bertie's stance on Flynn is equivalent to having "a situation where the leader of the Catholic Church believes that persons convicted by the Courts of extreme and cruel sexual and physical abuse of children, and who were found to have facilitated and encouraged others to abuse children, and who have no reputation worthy of protection, should be welcomed back into the Church and be promoted to be bishops."

 

[Johnny Boy]

wait a minute did Pat Rabbitte have something to do with official Sinn Féin? who supported the official IRA who in turn robbed banks planted bombs murdered people. Now posters think he is Nelson Mandela.He has done nothing of consequence except run away from power where if he had the will he would have followed up on his rheoteric. Labour talks good but rheoteric and actions are too differtent in their policies A few posters here seem to have lost the run of themselves too long up on the high horse.

 

[ubiquitous]

The crux of the matter really is that people vote for political parties for a wide range of reasons. As such it does not make sense to conclude that all the voters of a particular party are in agreement with each and every aspect of that party's policies and procedures, or even sometimes the people they vote for.

To take one example, many people in Co. Leitrim voted for John Ellis in the last election because they wanted a Co. Leitrim TD at any cost despite the fact that they neither supported FF nor had any time for Ellis, whose controversial business career has alienated many people over the years.

At the other end of the spectrum, I really doubt that the several thousand voters who voted for Joe Higgins were all in favour of hardline Marxist policies including nationalising industries & banks etc, and I suspect that quite a few of his votes came from people who supported him on specific issues (eg waste charges) but not on others.

Much as I might like to at times (ie when they win the odd football match) I also refuse to accept that the thousands of Kerrymen and women who vote for Martin Ferris are all complicit in the IRA's murder campaign of the past decades.

 

[Green]

wait a minute did Pat Rabbitte have something to do with official Sinn Féin?

Do you have evidence or factual proof of same?

 

[gonk]

Do you have evidence or factual proof of same?

Rabbitte was a member of Democratic Left AKA The Workers Party AKA Sinn Féin the Workers Party AKA Official Sinn Féin, before the DL merger with Labour.

He was first elected to the Dáil for the Workers Party.

 

[gonk]

The crux of the matter really is that people vote for political parties for a wide range of reasons. As such it does not make sense to conclude that all the voters of a particular party are in agreement with each and every aspect of that party's policies and procedures, or even sometimes the people they vote for.

I never said every Fianna Fáil voter agrees with Bertie's opinion of Flynn - I do say that a vote for Fianna Fáil must imply one is at least prepared to tolerate her in Government.

At the other end of the spectrum, I really doubt that the several thousand voters who voted for Joe Higgins were all in favour of hardline Marxist policies including nationalising industries & banks etc, and I suspect that quite a few of his votes came from people who supported him on specific issues (eg waste charges) but not on others.

I'm sure lots of people voted for Higgins because he was a very effective parliamentarian and opposition spokesman. I'm equally sure that if there was any prospect of him actually getting into power his vote would diminish significantly. As it is, he was not returned to the current Dáil. By contrast, voters for Fianna Fáil cast their votes in the knowledge that they are very likely to assist in returning that party to power.

Much as I might like to at times (ie when they win the odd football match) I also refuse to accept that the thousands of Kerrymen and women who vote for Martin Ferris are all complicit in the IRA's murder campaign of the past decades.

They are.

 

[Johnny Boy]

[broken link removed]

This is a fast google but did not he belong to "sinn fein the workers party" if you do not know this and you know everything that goes on in the tent at the Galway races your arguments are based on soundbites from the last election.
(am in hurry)

 

[ubiquitous]

I never said every Fianna Fáil voter agrees with Bertie's opinion of Flynn

Indeed you didn't, but you did say

Actually, on the basis of the party leader's post-election assessment of Beverly Flynn's character, it's reasonable to conclude that anyone who votes for Fianna Fáil in future is ok with tax evasion

which is a long way from saying...

...a vote for Fianna Fáil must imply one is at least prepared to tolerate her in Government.

 

[gonk]

"OK with" or "tolerate" - what's the difference?

 

[ubiquitous]

There is a big difference between "being ok with" (ie supporting or agreeing with) crimes and tolerating (or even voting for) someone who has either committed or facilitated such crimes in the past.