What will happen when/if the PService deal is rejected?

[Shawady]

I would consider Jack O'Connor one of the more militant union leaders and outspoken critics of the government and he is recommending acceptance. I think that is quite telling. He obviously thinks it is the best outcome at this point in time

 

[Latrade]

I would consider Jack O'Connor one of the more militant union leaders and outspoken critics of the government and he is recommending acceptance. I think that is quite telling. He obviously thinks it is the best outcome at this point in time

That's another consequence of rejection aside from the economical ones; what about Beggs and O'Connor if it's rejected? The accepted it, they said it was the only deal on the table, that this is it, the best you'll get, is rejection of the deal also rejection of them?

 

[doubledeb]

The 3 billion to be cut this year and next year does not have to come exclusively from the PS pay bill. It would be impossible to achieve. It is a mixture of increased taxation and spending cuts. As PS bill accounts for 1/3 of spending, it is reasonable to assume the majority of budget measures will not come from PS bill itself.

Sorry I meant public spending. Again the PS pay bill will come into it and if it doesn't directly get hit by means of a pay cut, higher taxes mean the same thing for the PS. They still have less money in their pockets!

 

[thedaras]

An Post have a whole section, know as the Rubber Room.

While I agree with you, Wait for the following:

Thats in the Indo,what do you expect?

Some have the view that anything in the Indo is biased.

So basically anything in the Indo that they don't agree with ,is answered with the above.

So even if they print something like your link which is true,it will be said it.

There are many examples of this on here.

 

[Shawady]

That's another consequence of rejection aside from the economical ones; what about Beggs and O'Connor if it's rejected? The accepted it, they said it was the only deal on the table, that this is it, the best you'll get, is rejection of the deal also rejection of them?

Thats what I find strange about the whole episode. The leaders negoiated and then as quickly recommended rejecting it.
We have to see how the ballots go. It would be interesting if some of the unions that recommend rejection actually get an acceptance vote.

 

[Latrade]

While I agree with you, Wait for the following:

And the fact that An Post is a commercial operation and not pure PS/CS isn't slightly relevant to it being used as an example?

 

[Latrade]

Thats what I find strange about the whole episode. The leaders negoiated and then as quickly recommended rejecting it.
We have to see how the ballots go. It would be interesting if some of the unions that recommend rejection actually get an acceptance vote.

The people involved in the negotiations are still pushing for its acceptance, it's their executives below them who represent the different sectors of the unions who are pushing for a rejection. It's a coup d'état within the unions.

Naturally I can't speak for those involved, but to me this just might be the beginnings of the "divide and conquer" conspiracy the unions warned against. I admire that it's the lower paid who are standing up to the union leaders and the previous pay deals (that never benefitted them) as well as the government, but it's likely to be a Pyrrhic victory.

 

[thedaras]

Thats what I find strange about the whole episode. The leaders negoiated and then as quickly recommended rejecting it.
We have to see how the ballots go. It would be interesting if some of the unions that recommend rejection actually get an acceptance vote.

Yes, but then again Jack o Connor said this morning that the pay deal would be revisited,when the Government said it would never be revisited.

So about turns are not unique to the unions.

 

[VOR]

Naturally I can't speak for those involved, but to me this just might be the beginnings of the "divide and conquer" conspiracy the unions warned against.

How can it be a conspiracy when you are given a choice and the harsher alternatives are already on the table? It was a simple choice. Take it or leave it.

 

[csirl]

Where are the public sector workers 'with no meaningful work to do'?

A lot of Government programmes were scaled back or cut altogether in the last couple of years. The staff in each of these programmes therefore have less to do, and if their programme has been cut altogether, have no work to do.

As a general rule, less money = less staff required.

 

[Latrade]

How can it be a conspiracy when you are given a choice and the harsher alternatives are already on the table? It was a simple choice. Take it or leave it.

The consipracy (probably a better term) related to the warnings that the Government were trying to cause splits in the unions in order to weaken them. Pitting union against union rather than as a unified voice. If it were a deliberate ploy, then the only conclusion is that it now appears to have worked perfectly.

 

[thedaras]

I watched the Frontline and there was a PS worker there ,and she was very much againist another PS worker,she let him have it!

So its Publc service against Public service.!

 

[Caveat]

@ Latrade

Whilst I would be barely able to contain myself at the prospect of a fractured and weakened trade union movement, I honestly don't think the government are that clever.

Much as I loathe most of the union leadership they are pretty shrewd usually.

If anything, I would say it was a case of the unions knowing that their bargaining power would be greatly lessened, saw the writing on the wall some time ago and made preemptive comments about dividing and conquering in an attempt to get the flak diverted to the government when the time came - which might just be about now.

 

[Complainer]

A lot of Government programmes were scaled back or cut altogether in the last couple of years. The staff in each of these programmes therefore have less to do, and if their programme has been cut altogether, have no work to do.

As a general rule, less money = less staff required.

Have any new Govt programmes been started over that time?

Like I said, do you have any specifics (other than the one example Towger gave)?

 

[VOR]

If anything, I would say it was a case of the unions knowing that their bargaining power would be greatly lessened, saw the writing on the wall some time ago and made preemptive comments about dividing and conquering in an attempt to get the flak diverted to the government when the time came - which might just be about now.

+1 Watching Frontline I was struck by how Jack O'Connor looked like a man that had stared in to the abyss. He just seemed to realise that, as you say, the writing was on the wall.

 

[csirl]

Have any new Govt programmes been started over that time?

Like I said, do you have any specifics (other than the one example Towger gave)?

Got to the 2010 Book of Estimates and compare the figures in each of the Votes with the 2009 Book of Estimates. You will find 100s of examples of programmes being cut or scaled back. Book of Estimate is on the Dept of Finance website.

 

[Latrade]

I agree, that's why I used the term conspiracy. I think the government are being hardlined but without the attempt to divide the unions, I actually don't think it's in their or our long term interest to do so (as much as Social Partnership got lost during the boom I still see it as a wortwhile mechanism).

However, early on, especially with the negative media attention, it was suggested that this was a government strategy to tailor public opinion and split the unions. I too would say the government just isn't that clever or devious.

But the fracture is happening viewing from the outside. What will become individual negotiating (doing away with Beggs et al) may lead to small individual victory for the union concerned, but it ultimately weakens them in the longer term.

My own view is that not only is rejection short-sighted economically and in terms of reality, but are members aware of the wheels they are now setting in motion. All union members need to do is look over to the UK and see just how far and influential their unions became when Heath's social partnership model was rejected and individual bargaining came in.

@ Latrade

Whilst I would be barely able to contain myself at the prospect of a fractured and weakened trade union movement, I honestly don't think the government are that clever.

 

[Purple]

The current situation (or cityation if you’re from Norn-Ireland) is akin to a family that promised the kids they would bring them to Disney Land next summer if they behaved, did their chores and were good in school. Well next summer is here but the parents have lost their jobs and the mortgage repayments have gone up and Disney Land is off the cards. The kids as a united group cried “BUT WE WANT TO GO TO DISNEYLAND, YOU SAID YOU WOULD BRING US. IT’S NOT FAIR!” The parents continue to explain, “It’s just not possible, it’s not your fault and we’re not blaming you but the money is just not there”.

The senior union officials who negotiated the deal are like the older children who, despite their tantrums, understand the reality of the situation. The problem is that their underlings are like the younger children who think if they cry and shout enough they will get their way.
There will be quite a few toys thrown out of quite a few prams over the coming months. I hope they don’t break anything important in the process.

I’m glad to see that even Jack O’Connor has, to a limited extent, grown up and accepted reality. I hope others follow suit.

 

[VOR]

The senior union officials who negotiated the deal are like the older children

Jack O'Connor as a maturing spotty teenager. Blair Horan as a toddler in his pram. How do I wash that image from my mind?

Too late...Liam Doran has arrived.

 

[becky]

Too late...Liam Doran has arrived.

What age bracket is he?