Threatened nurses strike

[Megan]

Exactly - No wonder the nurses are feel hard done by when they have to do 39 hours yet the rest of the health service is on 35 hours. I have no objection to the nurses getting their pay rise but do ot support the reduction in hours.

The government should set about getting all the others back onto 39 hours.

Did I not hear on the news today that the nurses union said its not helpfull that other health service workers are also looking for a 35 hour week. If thats the case - they must not be on a 35 hour week at present.

 

[KalEl]

Did I not hear on the news today that the nurses union said its not helpfull that other health service workers are also looking for a 35 hour week. If thats the case - they must not be on a 35 hour week at present.

I think it's cleaning and catering staff...and some maintenence people.
The nurses are looking for the same treatment comparable employees receive.

 

[Sunster]

I think it would be a good idea to allow nurses with 3 or 4 years experience to train as doctors. I think they should be able to do this without going through the points system. I think it would be good to have good nurses given the option to become doctors. I think the medical council's strangle hold on the training of doctors should end.

If they don't want to work 39 hours, what maks you think they might want to spend another 5 years a a student only to start working 70+ hours!

 

[Sunster]

As far as the strike action is concerned, they have my backing. I feel they are underpaid.

 

[nelly]

[ They're all degree educated after all

I suspect that not even half the overall number of nurses working in Ireland today have a degree which only came in circa '96. Its an inaccuracy used again and again by INO. The silly thing is that when the degree came in Diploma qualified nurses with years of experience were told to go back to college if they wanted a degree (very difficult to do if you are full time and maybe a parent etc so not too many did that), their union was deafeningly silent when nurses suggested that they have their qualification of diploma upgraded to degree at that time. So its a bit rich to tell us now that all the nurses have a degree. I am open to correction.

 

[KalEl]

I suspect that not even half the overall number of nurses working in Ireland today have a degree which only came in circa '96. Its an inaccuracy used again and again by INO. The silly thing is that when the degree came in Diploma qualified nurses with years of experience were told to go back to college if they wanted a degree (very difficult to do if you are full time and maybe a parent etc so not too many did that), their union was deafeningly silent when nurses suggested that they have their qualification of diploma upgraded to degree at that time. So its a bit rich to tell us now that all the nurses have a degree. I am open to correction.

I think this is nit-picking...obviously some older nurses do not have a degree but it's the situation now which is relevant.

 

[oopsbuddy]

I suspect that not even half the overall number of nurses working in Ireland today have a degree which only came in circa '96. Its an inaccuracy used again and again by INO. The silly thing is that when the degree came in Diploma qualified nurses with years of experience were told to go back to college if they wanted a degree (very difficult to do if you are full time and maybe a parent etc so not too many did that), their union was deafeningly silent when nurses suggested that they have their qualification of diploma upgraded to degree at that time. So its a bit rich to tell us now that all the nurses have a degree. I am open to correction.

Fair enough, I meant and therefore clarify that NEW graduate nurses are degree educated now. Many already qualified nurses have also chosen the option to go back and get their degree, in order to be on a comparable scale as their new colleagues when it comes to being eligible for higher grade positions. But you are right Nelly, it doesn't suit many others whose personal and family circumstances do not easily accommodate a return to study, and their years of experience do not often count when they are compared to those with degrees. So in my view, most qualified nurses DO now have a degree education, or if they are long enough qualified via diplomas and many years of experience, it may be a bit rich to suggest that they do not have the equivalent of a degree education.

After all, the nurse with a degree and little or no patient experience is not necessarily a better nurse than one who qualified years earlier (to the required examination standard at that time) and who has the practical nursing experience but not the degree. But this is really not the point.

 

[nelly]

I think this is nit-picking...obviously some older nurses do not have a degree but it's the situation now which is relevant.

It is inaccurate information stated again and again by the nurses union. They have a valid case for what they are demanding already without stating blatent untruths. All physio's, OH's etc to which nurses are comparing themselves to do have degrees.

 

[oopsbuddy]

I have clarified my point above, and it was careless of me to state that "all" nurses are degree qualified, but I stand over my subsequent comments so you know what I meant. However, I doubt Liam Doran or the INO would be as careless with such declarations, although I am open to correction! When did the INO say that all nurses have degrees, instead of all new nurses now have degrees?

 

[KalEl]

It is inaccurate information stated again and again by the nurses union. They have a valid case for what they are demanding already without stating blatent untruths. All physio's, OH's etc to which nurses are comparing themselves to do have degrees.

We are now in the realm of semantics...to enter the profession a degree is required. That is what's relevant. Maybe there's a 75 year old physio somewhere who doesn't have a degree? Does that mean all physio's should not be paid at a level commensurate with their study/level of qualification? No it does not.

 

[oopsbuddy]

More eloquently stated than I could manage! Thanks Kalel.

 

[nelly]

i am just stating how this misinformation is being placed into the discussion by the INO. to enter the profession a degree is required but INO is stating that people are leaving and that is their worry. The people who INO want to retain in the workforce are not all degree holders (because they don't need to be or want to go back to school), hense should the nurses be sucessful in their claim the taxpayer will foot the bill for people who do not and will not ever hold a degree. My point is what else are they stating which is untrue?

 

[KalEl]

Young highly qualified nurses are leaving the profession and going to work as sales reps for medical companies. This is a loss to patients. A reduction to a 35 hour week and the 10.6% pay rise would stem this brain drain and benefit the health service. I'm the first to say this country is gone mad when it comes to salaries...everyone seems to think they should be earning 50K per annum.
But the nurses are a special case...like firefighters and other sectors who won't go the whole hog and risk lives by striking, their innate goodness has been abused by society. They deserve remuneration and conditions appropriate to their qualifications and responsibilities.
And sadly they are not receiving this at the moment.

 

[Howitzer]

I feel some sectors of the health service are over paid for the service they provide. Is there any means for ME to strike in order to have their wages brought down, and their working hours brought up to a level where a moderate level of service could be achieved?

 

[nelly]

Young highly qualified nurses are leaving the profession

I have to say that young highly qualified graduates are often without work of any kind related to their studies due to companies folding here and not being replaced.
Is it possible that nurses are leaving nursing in the public sector because their qualification offers choice and a variety of jobs which are equally well paid? Reps pay their own pensions, but may get company cars for their own use that they pay BIK so it aint all green on this side.

This is a loss to patients.

Are the nurses coming to fill the places from Asia not passing muster? Patients will get cared for just not by Irish nurses but there are lots of nurses who would come here if their qualification was recognised by ABA.

A reduction to a 35 hour week and the 10.6% pay rise would stem this brain drain and benefit the health service. I'm the first to say this country is gone mad when it comes to salaries...everyone seems to think they should be earning 50K per annum.

So would requiring all newly qualified nurses to work for say 3 years as a RGN before pursuing further training before starting them on revised (upards) pay scale keeping the 39 hour week - would the unions enter those types of talks now? i would doubt it!

But the nurses are a special case...like firefighters and other sectors who won't go the whole hog and risk lives by striking, their innate goodness has been abused by society. They deserve remuneration and conditions appropriate to their qualifications and responsibilities.

I don't agree that nurses are a special case and deserve "special" treatment. There are nurses in my family who would support the strike (sure don't we all want a few more bob) but recognise that they are happy in the public sector as to enter the "real world" of the private sector does not appeal to them at all - I might guess why!

 

[Purple]

Are you certain about the pensionability issue? I was speaking to another healthcare worker recently (not a nurse) whose main gripe was that her shift allowances (which make up 30%-40% of her take home pay) were not pensionable.

Yep, from a nurse and the internet (I can't find the link).

I rest my case.

So the EU is a rightwing body!?

If they don't want to work 39 hours, what maks you think they might want to spend another 5 years a a student only to start working 70+ hours!

good point.

Young highly qualified nurses are leaving the profession and going to work as sales reps for medical companies. This is a loss to patients. A reduction to a 35 hour week and the 10.6% pay rise would stem this brain drain and benefit the health service. I'm the first to say this country is gone mad when it comes to salaries...everyone seems to think they should be earning 50K per annum.
But the nurses are a special case...like firefighters and other sectors who won't go the whole hog and risk lives by striking, their innate goodness has been abused by society. They deserve remuneration and conditions appropriate to their qualifications and responsibilities.
And sadly they are not receiving this at the moment.

So what if nurses continue to leave for other jobs? Does their pay continue to go up? There are loads of special cases. The question is can the country afford to pay for them all. As for innate goodness they are happy enough to go on strike whenever it suits them. Their tactic is simply to minimise the loss of public support.

I feel some sectors of the health service are over paid for the service they provide. Is there any means for ME to strike in order to have their wages brought down, and their working hours brought up to a level where a moderate level of service could be achieved?

I agree, consultants turning down €205k a year is hard to stomach. That said there aren't 40'000 consultants.

On the degree issue I think the whole think is a red herring. Nurses pushed for years to have their course changed to a degree from a diploma. There were no needs driven imperative. Now they are using the fact that they got what they wanted as grounds for a pay increase. Given that everyone’s job changes and develops and everyone has to learn new skills as they go through life can it be said that diploma qualified nurses are any less able to do their jobs than degree qualified nurses?

 

[nelly]

can it be said that diploma qualified nurses are any less able to do their jobs than degree qualified nurses?

Unfortunately it can be said that those diploma nurses are less able to travel up the ladder than degree qualified nurses (check out the job sections their years of experience must also weigh them down) and thus will be required to answer to a degree nurse with less experience (possibly less competent as the older soldier) but the only reason these Dip nurses would possibly leave is because of pay issues? Hmmm.

 

[KalEl]

I feel some sectors of the health service are over paid for the service they provide. Is there any means for ME to strike in order to have their wages brought down, and their working hours brought up to a level where a moderate level of service could be achieved?

As this is a thread discussing nurses your post is a little bizarre. Whatever your opinion on the validity of the nurses pay claims I have never heard their "service" questioned or a suggestion that they're overpaid.
They are not to blame for the problems in the health service, and to suggest otherwise is not fair.

 

[shanegl]

I haven't seen anyone in this thread mention the fact that the INO ignored the Labour Court's decision to refer them to the benchmarking process late last year. I have to say I have little sympathy for unions/employers when they ignore the mechanisms that are already in place to settle these disputes. Benchmarking seems good enough for the other nursing unions to pursue their claims, why not the INO?

 

[KalEl]

I haven't seen anyone in this thread mention the fact that the INO ignored the Labour Court's decision to refer them to the benchmarking process late last year. I have to say I have little sympathy for unions/employers when they ignore the mechanisms that are already in place to settle these disputes. Benchmarking seems good enough for the other nursing unions to pursue their claims, why not the INO?

It's the 35 hour week that's the bigger issue, not the 10.6% pay rise (or the allowance for Dublin nurses which rarely gets mentioned!)
If nurses were granted the 35 hour week or at least given a fair timescale set in stone for its implementation this dispute would be over and they would let benchmarking resolve the pay issue. The problem is with the embargo on hiring staff the HSE cannot and will not sanction the 35 hour week...there simply aren't the bodies to cover the hours. Hence their vague and wooly references to exploring and discussing the issue. The nurses want a firm commitment to act in the short term.