Threatened nurses strike

it is factually incorrect to say that nurses are part of the clinical decision making process in life and death situations. That’s why doctors study harder and longer and get paid more.
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I may have asked you before Purple what you had against nurses, and I think I'm starting to see that it's not really their pay claim that is exercising you, you really do have issues about your past experiences and current attitude which you need to resolve. Have you tried counselling?

Regarding your statement above, although I am not a nurse, I do have more than a passing understanding of their role in the workplace, and I think it is generally accepted that doctors rely heavily on nurses and other medical team players for their experience and input, as well as detailed knowledge of the patients and their background, which contribute to an overall assessment of many patient care situations. Palliative care, community care, acute ward situations spring to mind. Doctors do not work in isolation, and just because they "study harder and longer and get paid more" does not detract from the role of others in support.

For one who once said he hated "people who generalise", take a good long objective look at how you have portrayed nurses in all your previous posts!
 
Oops baby, I don't think your sarcasm adds much to the discussion. Personal experiences always colour our way of thinking - Purple just stated his.

Sure in theory nurses help the doctor come to a decision by relaying how the patient is doing but really if nurses had any real influence in the clinical decision would the Neary case have happened or if it did to the extent?. he operated directing his team at the time. Nurses know better than to question doctors decisions and certainly phoning a consultant in when he is oncall (on golf course perhaps) can be hazardous to health - students learn early on in the career, they are less scared than the junior doc though - from what I hear.
 
oopsbuddy said:
I may have asked you before Purple what you had against nurses, and I think I'm starting to see that it's not really their pay claim that is exercising you, you really do have issues about your past experiences and current attitude which you need to resolve. Have you tried counselling?
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I have nothing against nurses. I do not like the disingenuous way in which the INO represent their case. Thanks for your concern but nurses and their pay are not something that I loose sleep over. My issue is their pay claim. I don't accept that anyone deserves a 25% hourly pay rise, which is what they are looking for. Other than that I think that they do an adequate job. Some of them are excellent and some of them are poor. Some have a very hard, stressful and emotionally draining job and some have a very easy job. They may be, and in many cases are, asked to do things that many people, including me, would not do, but they knew that before they took the job. For that are well paid, they have total job security and they have a very good, heavily subsidised pension. They do not have the worry that many in the private sector have which is, “will I have a job next month/ year?” It is right and proper that risk is rewarded so this has to be taken into account when pay is calculated.

oopsbuddy said:
Regarding your statement above, although I am not a nurse, I do have more than a passing understanding of their role in the workplace, and I think it is generally accepted that doctors rely heavily on nurses and other medical team players for their experience and input, as well as detailed knowledge of the patients and their background, which contribute to an overall assessment of many patient care situations. Palliative care, community care, acute ward situations spring to mind. Doctors do not work in isolation, and just because they "study harder and longer and get paid more" does not detract from the role of others in support.
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I also have a passing understanding of their role in the workplace and I agree with you but the book stops with the doctor. He, or in most cases now days she, gathers data from others and along with their own examinations they make a decision. I have been, and continue to be, very critical of consultants and the general lack of real accountability for doctors in general so don't take my comments as meaning that they are holding the whole thing together.

oopsbuddy said:
For one who once said he hated "people who generalise", take a good long objective look at how you have portrayed nurses in all your previous posts!
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I have said that some are excellent, some are poor and most are adequate. They work in a bureaucratic, heavily unionised system that is badly run. This does not create a culture of dynamism or innovation. It is hard to remain motivated in such a system. Any group of 40’000 people in this environment would be the same. Do you disagree?
 
Purple said:
I have listened as three nurses had a long and animated discussion about oral sex at the desk in a children’s ward in Tallaght hospital. This went on for ten minutes
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You didn't catch their names or phone numbers by any chance?

Seriously though, you can't tarnish the whole profession because you had a bad experience. Plus you said you'd encountered some very good nurses. I don't see how anecdotes about nurses having a bawdy conversation or venting frustration at a colleague are relevant to the present dispute?
 
KalEl said:
You didn't catch their names or phone numbers by any chance?

Seriously though, you can't tarnish the whole profession because you had a bad experience. Plus you said you'd encountered some very good nurses. I don't see how anecdotes about nurses having a bawdy conversation or venting frustration at a colleague are relevant to the present dispute?
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I was merely pointing out that they are no more or less professional or dedicated than any other group of workers in a large public sector body. Some posters are justifying the 25% increased hourly pay claim on the basis that nurses are a special case. I was just noting that in my experience this was not the case.
 
nelly said:
Oops baby, I don't think your sarcasm adds much to the discussion. ...
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Who's being sarcastic??

Re:..."phoning a consultant in when he is oncall (on golf course perhaps)...", does this sarcasm assist the discussion?

Re Neary, you are absolutely right about the potential "career intimidation" surrounding questioning a consultant, but of all the examples to pick, Neary is one of those who clearly did make these decisions in his own 'omniscient' way, and look at the consequences! He was a rogue, thankfully (and/or hopefully!)
 
Purple said:
I was merely pointing out that they are no more or less professional or dedicated than any other group of workers in a large public sector body. Some posters are justifying the 25% increased hourly pay claim on the basis that nurses are a special case. I was just noting that in my experience this was not the case.
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I would dispute that...there is a vocational aspect to nursing that other professions do not have. Let's be fair, the majority of these people are not in this for the money. The majority are girls, working in difficult conditions, often subject to attacks from drunken members of the public, they see the most horrendous things, they have degrees and are lucky to earn €40K a year.
Commit to the 35 hour week and let benchmarking give them the 10.6%
 
Nurses now describe themselves as healthcare professionals and claim they deserve to be treated in the same manner as any other group of healthcare professionals.

The fact that the majority of nurses are "girls" or that many people consider them akin to angels is no longer relevant. If the supporters of the nurses' claims are now using that approach in their defense, then it smacks of desperation!
 
KalEl said:
I would dispute that...there is a vocational aspect to nursing that other professions do not have. Let's be fair, the majority of these people are not in this for the money. The majority are girls, working in difficult conditions, often subject to attacks from drunken members of the public, they see the most horrendous things, they have degrees and are lucky to earn €40K a year.
Commit to the 35 hour week and let benchmarking give them the 10.6%
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To be honest, I know you are on the nurses side (if it is a case of sides) but I find the above patronising considering the amount of work nurses have put into to getting their qualifications professionally recognised and rightly so. The days of nursing being a vocation are long gone. Nursing is a career like any other and should be treated as such. I presume that is what the nurses want.
 
What is incompatible about being a dedicated and trained professional AND having a vocational approach to your chosen career? I would suggest that one needs the vocation to choose the profession. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
 
Sunny said:
To be honest, I know you are on the nurses side (if it is a case of sides) but I find the above patronising considering the amount of work nurses have put into to getting their qualifications professionally recognised and rightly so. The days of nursing being a vocation are long gone. Nursing is a career like any other and should be treated as such. I presume that is what the nurses want.
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It is patronising...I know how much study nurses do and how hard they work. And yes, I am on their side. I just think nurses as a rule are more tolerant and caring than say me for example. They do see some pretty horrific stuff and despite the mess of trollies etc in my experience they do great work.
When I say vocation I mean it's more of a vocation than accountancy or the like!
 
When I say vocation I mean it's more of a vocation
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Not really KalEi - at the end of the day a job is a job - no matter what way you look at it.
People stay in nursing for all sorts of reasons - family friendly - money is not too bad (better the programming any way) - and yes some even like it.

No mater what job you do - people have to work hard these days - the private sector are always dealing with competio
n from other coutries and comanies. Nursing staff are not alone in working hard...
But the reality of this strike is that staff in the public sector want more pay and reduced hours. The union involved have walked out on bench marking...

Forget about nurses for a moment - do AAMers honestly believe that with benchmarking currently in place should a disiplin within the public sector be rewarded outside of benchmarking.. Without offering anything to justify their demands.
P
 
There is a hint here that if a job is a job, why not pay everybody the same? This sounds like an outdated political philosophy that has been more or less overcome by now in most parts of the world.

There is a summary elsewhere in this thread, or a combination of several, which summarises: give the nurses a FIRM commitment as to when the 35 hour-week will be brought in (after all, (1) it was recommended "a long time ago", and (2) most other colleagues already enjoy it, so why do the nurses NOT have it?), and once that issue has been resolved as above, go to benchmarking over the pay claim.
 
(2) most other colleagues already enjoy it, so why do the nurses NOT have it?),
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The thing is oopsbuddy - is that those who enjoy the 35 hour week (i.e.) a paid lunch are on call during that break and may/ may not get to take it.

When a nurse is on lunch - they are on lunch.....
 
As I am not a nurse I'll let other nurses respond to that...but I would say that this is not compatible with the number of times when someone very close to me gets no lunch at all..."if its busy its busy"!
 
but I would say that this is not compatible with the number of times when someone very close to me gets no lunch at all..."if its busy its busy"!
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As with all disiplins I'm afraid - no one really escapes that...
 
pinkyBear said:
The thing is oopsbuddy - is that those who enjoy the 35 hour week (i.e.) a paid lunch are on call during that break and may/ may not get to take it.

When a nurse is on lunch - they are on lunch.....
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This is a pretty outrageous claim...the only jobs I know where this would be the case are clock on/clock off ones of which nursing is certainly not one. Anyone else works through or foresakes lunch when required.
 
With regard to the 35 hour week, would nurses be willing to give up overtime and therefore only work the 35 hours that they so desperately want and use the savings to employ more nurses to make up for lost nursing hours. Not sure if the maths add up.
 
nurses are covered under the working time directive the same as everyone else barring the junior doctors, defence forces and i think the gardai. Open to correction. after 4 straight hours they get 15 min and so on.
 
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