Threatened nurses strike

[nelly]

personally i think their union got the timing wrong again. If they had looked for this when the celtic tiger was in full swing and the country was awash with money then they might have gotten it. Now I don't think they have a prayer because for the private sector workers its looking increasingly bleak - lots of companies leaving, companies like Amgen postponing their setting up for 2 years etc etc and then we have to look at people who have the "job for life" kicking up because they were not hired at the same rate as the person beside them - this happens in the private sector all the time, its down to supply and demand.
BTW i think nurses pensions are not all that but then my own is not great - It doesn't exist
Why can i ask, is the demand to get into nursing courses still as high as ever if it is such an unfairly paid job?, the nursing board as rigid as ever in not recognising other EU member training courses (to encourage nurses into the group)?, and the unions so bad a managing their timing?

They will get nothing from Mary Harney i suspect and as a private sector worker i can't say i am sorry, I just hope the government will ignore all other pay demands (blue flu springs to mind) when the humer takes the unions to go demanding as I honestly think its gone to the silly end of the spectrum.

watchin last night and hearing all the "deals" done outsite beanchmarking annoyed me so much. It should be scrapped and public sector workers be invited into the real working world.

and thats my rant for today.

 

[dam099]

Like most of the public service they are overpaid as it is. Mary Harney tonight was on the TV saying last year the average nurse earned 54,000 euro last year. This is much more than the average industrial wage, yet they enjoy security of employment and other perks. The country is gone mad.

How is that figure arrived at? The pay scale for staff nurses (who I would have thought account for the bulk of nurses) tops out at about €42K with maybe another €2-5K allowances available if they work in specialist areas.

 

[pinkyBear]

How is that figure arrived at? The pay scale for staff nurses (who I would have thought account for the bulk of nurses) tops out at about €42K

I think you'll find that a nurse is quite well paid, being an ex nurse - I actually find the current behaviour discusting.
And this from a union that walked out of benchmarking!

[broken link removed]

With the 35 hour week you will also find that the "Allied Health" staff are on call during their lunch break where as a staff nurse is not.

 

[Sunny]

Just on a kinda unrelated point. Was watching the news last night when Mary Harney was speaking in the Dail about this developing crisis. I would have assumed all our esteemed public representatives would be rushing to hear what she had to say on the matter but the chamber was empty.

The nurses are looking for a 35 hour week and a 10% rise. The Dail sits on average 93 days a year (and on last nights evidence, I don't know why it bothers!). TD's wages have increased by more than 120% since January 1997 and now earn 11% more than their MP conterparts in the English Parliment. Do they work harder? I think it just shows what a scam benchmarking was.

I don't think the nurses should get the 35 hour week and while they may have a good argument over some pay inequalities, they would be better off concentrating on that rather than looking for a package that most private sector employees would find ridiculous.

 

[Pique318]

How many nurses work 39 hours a week? Very few I'd wager.
How many will be working 35 if/when this comes in ? Probably none.

So the reality is that nurses work probably 45-50 hours a week and get 6-11 hours overtime atm and want 4 more hours OT as none will be walking out the door after a 7 hour day !

By the way, how many people get paid OT in the (private, skilled, non manual labour) workforce ? Just curious....

 

[RainyDay]

Like most of the public service they are overpaid as it is. Mary Harney tonight was on the TV saying last year the average nurse earned 54,000 euro last year. This is much more than the average industrial wage, yet they enjoy security of employment and other perks. The country is gone mad.

Don't let Mary pull the wool over your eyes? Did she include the Matron's salary in her 'average' calculation (while of course the directors salaries are not included in the 'average industrial' calculation). How much of her 'average' earnings relates to shift allowances, compared to the 'average industrial'? Isn't it entirely reasonable to pay nurses a premium for shift work?

If you think nurses are overpaid, you might wonder why they are leaving in their droves for sales jobs and nursing overseas? You might wonder why 1/3 of the nurses in Dublin hospitals are non-Irish nationals? Just wait till one of your relatives is lying on a trolley waiting for nurse and you'll change your views quick enough.

And this from a union that walked out of benchmarking!

Which union(s) walked out of benchmarking, Pinky?

 

[sherib]

It is very difficult if not impossible to get accurate facts about Nurses' salaries based on sound bites. No one knows the true story except those on the inside. However, from the Government side it does appear true that if the Nurses' pay claim were to be conceded it would lead to similar claims throughout the public service with resultant mayhem. If anyone knows how this scenario could be avoided, it would be interesting to hear of any possible mechanism. It has been claimed that the entitlement to a 35 hour week could be processed through Benchmarking; either this is true or false. This seems to be a reasonable claim if the 35 hour week applies throughout the public service.

Among the nurses' claims, the most reasonable one is the claim that Care workers, who are less qualified and not registered and who report to Nurses, are paid more than Nurses. I'm almost certain that I heard in recent days that this anomaly only concerns about 40+ nurses. If this is correct, then that should be easily enough rectified and should not be a reason for industrial action. On the subject of having to be registered, also stated in support of Nurses' claims; to the best of my knowledge there is no register for many workers in the health care system, i.e., Radiographers, Physiotherapists, Occupational therapists, Speech therapists, Care workers or Psychologists.
With regard to the number of Nurses leaving the profession, that is easily enough explained. It is an excellent qualification which is acceptable in most of the western world (unlike many others). It provides an opportunity to travel and to obtain better paid employment such as representatives with Pharmacutical companies, Occupational nursing with large companies, GP practice nursing and not forgetting complimentary "medicine" fields as well as Counselling after training courses of short duration that can be pursued part-time. They definitely do not go to the UK where Nurses' salaries are very much lower.

It remains to be seen whether or not it was a strategically beneficial move to embark on industrial action on the eve of a General Election. I can't see any future government conceding all the Nurses claims. The cost to the public purse due to the knock-on effect would be enormous; it wouldn't be a problem if the electorate were willing to accept a substantial hike in their tax rates to pay for this claim. That is the nub of the question.

IMO it was not a clever move to include the Children's hospital in Crumlin in this action. Whatever about adults, people will not view with sympathy actions that lead to Children's Out-Patients appointments and surgical operations having to be cancelled as was reported today - if this is true.

 

[Purple]

Don't let Mary pull the wool over your eyes? Did she include the Matron's salary in her 'average' calculation (while of course the directors salaries are not included in the 'average industrial' calculation). How much of her 'average' earnings relates to shift allowances, compared to the 'average industrial'? Isn't it entirely reasonable to pay nurses a premium for shift work?

It’s a fair point and I would also like to see a detailed breakdown of nursing pay scales. But it should be noted that nurses have made it clear that they are professionals and as such it is entirely proper to include all salary levels in calculating their average pay.

If you think nurses are overpaid, you might wonder why they are leaving in their droves for sales jobs and nursing overseas?

Many nurses leave to travel for a year or two and then come back. Many, like any other sector, change jobs because they realise that they would prefer to do something else.

You might wonder why 1/3 of the nurses in Dublin hospitals are non-Irish nationals?

I don’t see your point here as it could also be concluded that they are very well paid and this attracts nurses from overseas to compete for the jobs.

Just wait till one of your relatives is lying on a trolley waiting for nurse and you'll change your views quick enough.

So if one of my relatives is lying on a trolley waiting for a consultant I should then conclude that consultants are not overpaid? I don’t see the relevance. What I might conclude is that the hospitals are badly run and the nurses are part of the problem, but that would hardly be news.

 

[ashambles]

The average nurses earnings come from taking the total paid to nurses and dividing by the number of nurses. Neither wool pulling nor rocket science.

Directors of nursing/matrons are included in that average figure - but they are also represented by the INO and are also involved in the pay claim. So the INO can hardly claim it's unfair they're included in the average figure.

The figure is signifigantly higher than the simple salary per grade, due to allowances and overtime. Not that unfair they're included either - the pay rise will also affect them.

On the INO site where they've been diligently updating their trolley watch webpage - it's notable since the (in)action started they've not produced any figures.

 

[Megan]

I know a student nurse who during the week dye a patient's hair. This student is on placement as part of her training. I was surprised to hear this as I am sure that does not fall into the job description of a nurse.
I only hope that down the road when she is a fully trained nurse that she will still feel that she will be able to do something like that for a patient but I suppose the INO will have got to her by then.

 

[Gordanus]

It is very difficult if not impossible to get accurate facts about Nurses' salaries based on sound bites. No one knows the true story except those on the inside. <

Nurses salaries are easy to get hold of - SIPTU & IMPACT publish the scales on their websites. These are basic pay; nurses working shifts will get shift allowance on top for working nights and Sundays. Public Health Nurses, nursses working in out-patient depts, all community nurses work 9-5 and do not get shift allowances.

>However, from the Government side it does appear true that if the Nurses' pay claim were to be conceded it would lead to similar claims throughout the public service with resultant mayhem. If anyone knows how this scenario could be avoided, it would be interesting to hear of any possible mechanism. It has been claimed that the entitlement to a 35 hour week could be processed through Benchmarking; either this is true or false. This seems to be a reasonable claim if the 35 hour week applies throughout the public service. <

This has been addressed in previous posts. A nurse working 9-5 is paid for 8 hours as she is on call during lunch, rather than being paid for 7 hours. If she does work during her lunchbreak, she cannot claim back time.

>On the subject of having to be registered, also stated in support of Nurses' claims; to the best of my knowledge there is no register for many workers in the health care system, i.e., Radiographers, Physiotherapists, Occupational therapists, Speech therapists, Care workers or Psychologists.<

Registration for all para medical professions is coming in. The Health & Social Care Professionals Council has representatives from all paramed professions (Clinical Biiochemists, Dieticians, Medical Scientists, OTs, Orthoptists, physios, podiatrists, psychologists, radiographers, social workers, social care workers, speech & language therapists) and is in talks with the DoHC to register all these professions. Registration is to protect the public as nobody who is not registered can call themselves members of the profession.

>With regard to the number of Nurses leaving the profession, that is easily enough explained. It is an excellent qualification which is acceptable in most of the western world (unlike many others). It provides an opportunity to travel and to obtain better paid employment such as representatives with Pharmacutical companies, Occupational nursing with large companies, GP practice nursing and not forgetting complimentary "medicine" fields as well as Counselling after training courses of short duration that can be pursued part-time. They definitely do not go to the UK where Nurses' salaries are very much lower.<

OH nurses, Practice nurses etc are still nurses and need to continue their registration, which will in future require a committment to CPD. if they leave, maybe they also found that they got burned out as people tend to go into these professions to 'help others'; they then find that drive frustrated at every turn due to lack of resources. Nursing is also a very physical job - lots of lifting of patients - and many nurses get back injuries and leave. Many find the job too tough as they get older, and shift working may not suit all. The fact that nurses leave a profession that they entered at age 18 should surprise nobody - doesn't this happen in other jobs?

>It remains to be seen whether or not it was a strategically beneficial move to embark on industrial action on the eve of a General Election. I can't see any future government conceding all the Nurses claims. The cost to the public purse due to the knock-on effect would be enormous; it wouldn't be a problem if the electorate were willing to accept a substantial hike in their tax rates to pay for this claim. That is the nub of the question.<

I agree; it's bad timing. But the issue of hours should have been addressed a long time ago. It is the frustration of nurses that is spilling out now, and it is unfortunate.

>IMO it was not a clever move to include the Children's hospital in Crumlin in this action. Whatever about adults, people will not view with sympathy actions that lead to Children's Out-Patients appointments and surgical operations having to be cancelled as was reported today - if this is true.

It's impossible to make exceptions. I heard someone calling that Cancer patients be left out. Why not then Cardiac, or Dialysis, or whatever?

 

[MOB]

"The average nurses earnings come from taking the total paid to nurses and dividing by the number of nurses. Neither wool pulling nor rocket science....."

Certainly, this is one form of averaging, and it produces the figure properly referred to as the mean average.

This is the most commonly held view on how to arrive at an 'average' figure, but the issue is a little more complex. Most reputable statisticians would regard the median (which is also an average) as a more informative figure when discussing average earnings. A simple example would illustrate: if Bill Gates moved into your street, then the average income for your street (calculated as a mean average) would become meaningless, while the median average would hardly move at all. There are other ways of calculating an average too; I think there are three mainstream methods, of which the above are two.

I have no idea what sort of 'average' Mary Harney used in arriving at her figure; however, I am always frankly dubious of statistics when quoted by politicians. Mind you, the trade unions are no slouches either when it comes to quoting statistics in a way designed to mislead rather than inform.

 

[sherib]

Originally Posted by MOB
I am always frankly dubious of statistics when quoted by politicians. Mind you, the trade unions are no slouches either when it comes to quoting statistics in a way designed to mislead rather than inform.

Lies, damn lies and statistics

Originally Posted by Gordanus
Nurses salaries are easy to get hold of - SIPTU & IMPACT publish the scales on their websites

Not so - you have to be a member to access these sites or so I found. Anyhow what I meant was that one would need to know point on pay scale, other qualifications, overtime, allowances etc which, I presume, must cause significant variations in median/average salary.

This has been addressed in previous posts. A nurse working 9-5 is paid for 8 hours as she is on call during lunch, rather than being paid for 7 hours. If she does work during her lunchbreak, she cannot claim back time.

This does not answer the point I made which was: what mechanism would prevent all workers in the public service from seeking the same increase which Nurses are claiming?

Nursing is also a very physical job - lots of lifting of patients - and many nurses get back injuries and leave. Many find the job too tough as they get older, and shift working may not suit all.

I have sympathy with this and believe it might be better for both patients and Nurses that they move on if they find the work too onerous or less satisfying as the years pass. In fact I would support a claim for retirement at 60 rather than 65 years which, I understand, applies to Psychiatric Nurses. Anyone who has experienced less than tender care from a Nurse would agree I feel sure. If people with families (men and women) find it difficult to juggle 9-5 jobs with home responsibilites, it must be even more stressful and difficult for Nurses, in which case something/someone has to suffer. In the past, when Nursing was regarded as a vocation, most if not all were unmarried. This is not the case any more I imagine. It's a tough job and when discontent sets in, as it likely does with some due to age and circumstances, I'm not convinced money will be enough to relieve that.

PS No one has refuted the statement that the pay differential between Care Workers and Nurses only applies to ~ 40 Nurses - as reported during the week so presumably that was correct?

 

[RainyDay]

The average nurses earnings come from taking the total paid to nurses and dividing by the number of nurses. Neither wool pulling nor rocket science.

Directors of nursing/matrons are included in that average figure - but they are also represented by the INO and are also involved in the pay claim. So the INO can hardly claim it's unfair they're included in the average figure.

The figure is signifigantly higher than the simple salary per grade, due to allowances and overtime. Not that unfair they're included either - the pay rise will also affect them.

The wool pulling relates to the comparison of the figure calculated in this way to the 'average industrial wage' figure which does not include shift allowances and does not include salaries paid to management/directors. This is comparing apples with water-melons, and being surprised when they are different in size.

 

[Gordanus]

see my post 24.01.07 for Staff Nurse pay, a few pages back. (Staff Nurses is what most nurses are - it's the basic grade. Some will be promoted to Managers/Ward Sisters, some will leave, others will go into other branches of nursinig eg Public Health Nursing - but the bulk of nurses are Staff Nurses)

 

[jmayo]

I will admit I would rather give the nurses a pay rise than the useless crowd of gob***** that populate the HSE (Health Boards by another name) or the overpaid pampered consultants.
Recently had to use health service in NZ and apart from being injured it would have been an absolute joy. No cr** with long queues, waiting lists, lazy inefficient staff and beuracry like experienced from our so called health service.

A question I have is if Bertie and co meet the nurses demands who will be next out of the traps looking for pay increases and decreases in working hours.

 

[Sunny]

A question I have is if Bertie and co meet the nurses demands who will be next out of the traps looking for pay increases and decreases in working hours.

Teachers by the looks of it. Followed by guards. Followed by the rest of the public sector. And finally followed by a very pi**ed off private sector.

 

[Purple]

The INTO have already taken the first place in the queue.

The teachers are now saying that inflation is too high so they want more money. How can any group spend years negotiating a long term pay deal and then just walk out when inflation gets high for a few month? If inflation had been lower than predicted would they have accepted the government giving them lower than agreed pay rises? Coming from the private sector I genuinely do not understand the mind set of the public sector in this country where unions want pay to be set at what they think they need or deserve, not at what they are worth.
Public sector pay went up by an average of 59% from 2001 to 2006 while the average industrial wage went up by about 21%. Pension costs went up by a staggering 81% over the same period. See here for details. How is this sustainable?

 

[joe sod]

I think the nurses have got it badly wrong looking for these demands. The last time in 1999 they got full support and sympathy from the public, also the celtic tiger was young and healthy. The nurses want to be compared with other workers in the public service, however it is workers in the private sector that are comparing themselves to nurses and are actually envious of the package the nurses have. This is a debate the nurses are reluctant to get into and speak as if private sector workers were on a different planet to them. It will be the equivalent of ireland's miners strike because I don't think the government can give in on this.

 

[edo]

The INTO have already taken the first place in the queue.

The teachers are now saying that inflation is too high so they want more money. How can any group spend years negotiating a long term pay deal and then just walk out when inflation gets high for a few month? If inflation had been lower than predicted would they have accepted the government giving them lower than agreed pay rises? Coming from the private sector I genuinely do not understand the mind set of the public sector in this country where unions want pay to be set at what they think they need or deserve, not at what they are worth.
Public sector pay went up by an average of 59% from 2001 to 2006 while the average industrial wage went up by about 21%. Pension costs went up by a staggering 81% over the same period. See here for details. How is this sustainable?

Well said Purple - as regards inflation I don't think the public sector understand the meaning of the word - ironic considering its their inefficiency and wastefulness and then jacking up the charges to try and hide this that is causing most of the inflation here in the first place.

As regards are they worth it? - Well everybody I talked to in the public sector are under the opinion that they would be multimillionaire stock brokers and Mighty CEOs if they hadn't offered it all up to work selflessly for the poor, destitute and the starving (ie the entire private sector in a couple of years if the start of this one is anything to go by!) by supplying us with the wonderful public services we have at the moment - parallel universes I think the phenomenon is called.

I think the nurses have got it badly wrong looking for these demands. The last time in 1999 they got full support and sympathy from the public, also the celtic tiger was young and healthy. The nurses want to be compared with other workers in the public service, however it is workers in the private sector that are comparing themselves to nurses and are actually envious of the package the nurses have. This is a debate the nurses are reluctant to get into and speak as if private sector workers were on a different planet to them. It will be the equivalent of ireland's miners strike because I don't think the government can give in on this.Today 02:42 PM

No way the Gov is going to give in now that the teachers have put their cards on the table - and rest of the public service unions are watching on with great interest. The longer the dispute goes on , the more public sympathy will erode away - The Gov know that and they just have to hang on until the election is called - all the opposition parties are staying very quiet as they know that they will have to face the same nonsense if they get elected in place of FF/PD's - I Think the Unions are being extremely stupid about this dispute and should know that Bertie has been their best friend - this brinkmanship will have no winners - Joe Sod - I think you are dead right - This is Ireland's miner's strike - who runs the country? - the elected government or sectional vested interests? - if they win this the Celtic Tiger is finally dead and its back to the bad old days