The R Word

television said:
Even the greatest advotes of capatialism would aggree with me that the world is becoming smaller in terms of the movement of goods people and services. My point was that this has oppurtunities and potential costs for workers accross the globe. It is not enough as in the past for workers in countries to unit to effectively tackle exploitation, they must unite transnationally. In this great world of global competition you talk about there is winners and loosers. and the loosers are hundreds of millions of people for whom capitialism has failed. Not because capitialism is bad but because it has allowed to go unchecked.
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In these countries government has failed to govern for the people and so some of those with power have used that power to exploit their fellow citizens. The instrument of that exploitation can be capital, military or politics (and often all three). You are seeing the symptom as the cause.

Here's a question, I have asked you before but I will ask again as I am interested in your answer. If you have the choice of buying a computer which was made in China for €300 or one made by Irish employees for €1200 which would you buy?
In this scenario employees in both countries are paid a good living wage, it just so happens that a good living wage in China is one twentieth of a good living wage in Ireland. So neither group of employees are exploited.
Even if you would buy the more expensive computer I think you will accept that most people will not so the manufacturer in Ireland can either reduce costs, relocate to a low wage environment or go out of business.
Ignoring the realitied of international competition do not change it.
 
Purple said:
No, I am saying that one lead to the other. The rest of your post is correct in fact. No confusion here.
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Whereas I am saying the opposite - I am saying that the improvement in workers rights through the late nineteenth/early twentieth century, in particular education improvements (which I apologise for not mentioning initially!) led to greater democracy.
 
yoganmahew said:
Whereas I am saying the opposite - I am saying that the improvement in workers rights through the late nineteenth/early twentieth century, in particular education improvements (which I apologise for not mentioning initially!) led to greater democracy.
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I don't think they can be separated but the innovations and societal changes resulting from the population drop started the ball rolling. Urbanisation, education, political enlightenment, liberal humanism, labour organisation and most importantly the need for a skilled workforce, and the empowerment that this gave to average citizens, were all factors that increased the rate of change.
 
television said:
Public sector workers with similar qualification levels lag significanly behind the private sector equilivent in terms of pay, and that is after sucessive round of benchmarking. That is a fact.
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well why dont they join the private sector so for the big money. i hear these stories about people on 30k with a degree and masters in the civil service. in my opinoin if a person has those qualifications and isnt being paid properly then that their own fault. they obviously have no drive or ambition .

by the way thats the way it should work. a person should have less pay in the PS due to the job for life scenario. we have being saying this for the whole post. PS workers cant have pay equality and the job for life as well
 
jimbob1234 said:
well why dont they join the private sector so for the big money. i hear these stories about people on 30k with a degree and masters in the civil service. in my opinoin if a person has those qualifications and isnt being paid properly then that their own fault. they obviously have no drive or ambition .

by the way thats the way it should work. a person should have less pay in the PS due to the job for life scenario. we have being saying this for the whole post. PS workers cant have pay equality and the job for life as well
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Good post. but fair play to yourself too, Television, for arguing your points well. I don't agree with most of them, but I applaud your coming on here and putting forward points of view which only one or two others in here are supporting.

And seeing as how we can't get off the public/private sector debate - why is it that the Gardai still use notepads when you go in there to report a crime? Would it be because they'd want more pay to use a computer? Even though a computer would be far more efficient and reliable all round?
And why is it that train drivers here in Cork keep striking at the drop of a hat? They wanted more money to drive new trains. Would a private sector worker get more money to move to a new office?
And why is it that the employees of the old health boards got 'incentives' to change their name to HSE? If a private sector company changes it's name and sweet FA else, do their workers get 'incentives'?
Public sector unions run the country for their own benefit, with the government as their lapdogs. How can one have any other view when you look around and see a porter in Limerick refusing to push a sick woman in a trolley without permission from his union (which he didn't get) ?
How can we in the private sector look around and applaud the public sector? How can we feel anything but frustration as the unions go to raid the family silver once more? Of course we all want pay rises these days - the price of everything is going up. But this isn't realistic in the private sector during a recession, so we end up having to tighten our belts and make do with what we have. Unless we work for Linsey or Hibernian, in which case paycuts (10%) or unemployment awaits. While our comrades in the jobs for life, gauranteed pension sector go looking for pay rises. It is no wonder people are angry.
 
they are getting the pay rises anyway, what they are looking for is new benchmarking rates, if the govt give in to this in these economic times then i will give up on them totally and never again vote fianna fail.

if the gardai put everything in a computer rather than a notepad then were would be no chance of a report going "missing", that would upset some people im afraid
 
shnaek said:
While our comrades in the jobs for life, gauranteed pension sector go looking for pay rises. It is no wonder people are angry.
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There are lots of good people in the public sector who make a real contribution and probably deserve increases.
How about giving the public sector increases using private sector principles. My former employer gave increases to only the top 70% of performers ... even in the "tiger" years .... the other 30% were told why they had not received increases ... all very transparent ...they either shaped up or shipped out. Forced ranking each year identified the bottom 10% of performers who again had a period to shape up or in most cases left of their own volition. Staff satisfaction was measured each year and was high. Client satisfaction was also built into the equation ...it was (and I assume still is) a very successful business
Never happen in the public sector of course

Struggling to see where this private v public sector debate fits in the context of the R word. We are in a hole and given that there is a time lag on economic indicators, the hole is probably deeper than we realise and getting deeper.
 
Purple said:
What people deserve and what their employer can afford to give them are not the same thing.
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I agree though the HR flexibility, structures, processes and practice are not in place to even recognise those where an increase could be worked thru assuming efficiencies, headcount reduction elsewhere etc etc etc.

Are there any elements that could be outsourced to india as part of an efficiency drive. :D
 
I have to say that as a public sector worker I am embarrassed that the unions are today calling for "significant increases in pay". Many of my colleagues feel the same and would accept a pay freeze. I also expect that a recruitment freeze is imminent.
I can't deny that there is a need for reform in the public sector and a lot of Purple's points in this regard are very valid. Reform needs to come from the top down and I would suggest that public services in the transport and electricity sectors should be top of the list. (I'm not going to get into the health service - its thankfully something I know nothing about).

Its easy to point the finger at the public sector when a downturn is looming/has already arrived. But to describe all public sector workers as lazy and pathetic shows a blatant disregard for the interity of public servants and displays an amazing lack of knowledge about the work of the public sector. I have avoided AAM for some time because of the public sector bashing that goes on by a limited number of posters - and before anyone asks, I'm on annual leave at the moment and not wasting any taxpayers money by posting here today.
 
aonfocaleile - a good post, thank you for that. i know we have all said things that were out of order. do you agree that is the large increases in pay are granted then this country will be ruined and we will have hyperinflation.
 
I don't think large pay hikes would lead to hyperinflation but my knowledge of economics is limited. In any event, I doubt that "large" increases are likely - its more likely that the Govt will grant modest increases over a number of years through the partnership process, more as conciliatory gesture than anything less (otherwise they will surely have to relinquish their own pay hike - now due in September). A Government led by Cowen is probably more likely to reject the pay increase than one led by Ahern but I'm surprised this hasn't been announced yet.

I think the credit crunch is having the most serious impact and would like (in an effort to bring the thread back on topic) to see more debate on this subject. What do people think is in the offing for the US economy and what impact will this have here? I know friends of mine working in multi-nationals are worried about their jobs...
 
aon - when you say you would accept a pay freeze are you saying you would accept a real pay freeze or still get your increment and not get a new bench marking
 
jimbob1234 said:
aon - when you say you would accept a pay freeze are you saying you would accept a real pay freeze or still get your increment and not get a new bench marking
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Jimbob will you get over it please. Yes public sector workers recieve incremental credit and no, there is absolutly no chance that any public sector worker in their right mind is going to say they should be halted. You really need to get off the mindless public sector bashing, and move on to something else in relation to the cause of the recession.

The last round of benchmarking gave no increase to the vast majority of Public Sector workers.
 
It wouldn't be the end of the world for me if a "real" pay freeze was introduced but there isn't the remotest chance of this happening. Any public sector pay freeze would relate to national wage agreements rather than increments. Bear in mind that increments are not automatically awarded - they are performance related in my organisation and many staff do not receive them if they are not up to scratch.

Substantial overtime payments, outdated working practices, top-heavy organisations and dubious agencies should be the target in terms of reducing the public sector pay bill - not the incremental pay of individuals.
 
Purple said:
In these countries government has failed to govern for the people and so some of those with power have used that power to exploit their fellow citizens. The instrument of that exploitation can be capital, military or politics (and often all three). You are seeing the symptom as the cause.
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The problem with this is that you do not see the relationships that exist between government and business. Business influences government in a varity of ways, sometimes quite reasonably and other times to allow curruption and exploitation. This relationship is becoming more pronounced in every level, for example drug companies have a huge influence on the health policy and multinational IT companies in education. Now these companies do not have the health or education of ordinary people as thier primary motivation. So goverments can not be seen outside the context of the business community, they are interlinked.
Purple said:
Here's a question, I have asked you before but I will ask again as I am interested in your answer. If you have the choice of buying a computer which was made in China for €300 or one made by Irish employees for €1200 which would you buy?
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If the workers in China had decent working conditions and were payed a fair wage according to thier own economy and had decent terms and conditions of employment then I have no problem buying the chineese produce.
Purple said:
In this scenario employees in both countries are paid a good living wage, it just so happens that a good living wage in China is one twentieth of a good living wage in Ireland. So neither group of employees are exploited..
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But frequently this is not the case. Of course people in the developing world will work for next to nothing and put up with conditions people in the west would not. Frequently multinationals set up in the developing world do not allow unions and do expolit workers and if these people do not like it they will just employ one of a hundred people waiting at the factory gate. A suituation like this makes it easy for these people suffer terrible exploitation by any standard. This is wrong.

.[/quote]Even if you would buy the more expensive computer I think you will accept that most people will not so the manufacturer in Ireland can either reduce costs, relocate to a low wage environment or go out of business. Ignoring the realitied of international competition do not change it.[/quote]

What happens when all the irish multinationals get up and move to places like India etc. This rethoric about Irish workers needing to be smarter and cleverer and innovative in order to compete is a complete load of rubbish. The indians are producing cleverer more innovate and smarter young people then we ever will and they have a cost base a fraction of ours. I just dont see how we can all be winners in this one. At least not in the short to medium term and that transition is going to cause a lot of pain for billions of people.
 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

Please, more about the public sector in this thread. Not been discussed enough.
 
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