The R Word

[jimbob1234]

will people give it up already with the black death thing

 

[Sunny]

will people give it up already with the black death thing

Exactly. I am pretty sure the black death is not resonsible for Ireland's economic woes.

Open up another thread if you to debate it

 

[csirl]

will people give it up already with the black death thing

People are talking about the current state of the country as if it were as bad as the black death

How about introducing a new "R-word" - Recovery.

 

[Humdinger]

Despite the swipes that they get from the media about long holidays and high pay politicians work very long hours in high-pressure jobs with no job security. Nobody in their right mind would become a TD.

I agree that it takes a certain animal to become a politician though there is lots of ammo to challenge the high pressure/ no security comments. TDs submitted 6000 passport applications last year for constituents for example .... that makes a difference .... NOT. Many on sabbaticals for 20 years from state jobs etc etc.

Sadly we now need them to make a difference, grab hold of the R word and put some real actions in place that will make that difference.

I think there is a willingness to do this amongst our "cabinet leaders". However with a few notable exceptions, there is'nt the vision, competence or leadership to execute what needs to happen. look at Health, lots of willing and good intentions ... 5 years later the situation is worse and the cost base has trippled.

I hope I am am proved wrong but I fear the cabinet don't have the brains or cojones for the fight.

Anyway, back to the black death and the ideological musing

 

[shnaek]

However with a few notable exceptions, there is'nt the vision, competence or leadership to execute what needs to happen. look at Health, lots of willing and good intentions ... 5 years later the situation is worse and the cost base has trippled.

Hear, hear. There are certainly plenty of good intentions there, but we need skilled leadership, and we need some way of getting that kind of leadership in charge of our country. I don't see many contenders across the political spectrum. That reflects on us as a people as much as it does our elected representatives. I just hope that the lessons of the 70s and 80s have been learned. Otherwise, will the last person to leave switch the lights off...

 

[jimbob1234]

i think brian cowan is a very tough customer and he will make very harsh decisions without maybe thinking them through fully first.

 

[ccbkd]

i think brian cowan is a very tough customer and he will make very harsh decisions without maybe thinking them through fully first.

I think its Brian Cowens fault that we're in the position we're in he was not qualified to be a Finance Minister, surely someone from an accountancy /economic background would have had more vision and would have had the foresight to see the kinda of mess the property bubble had to the potential to create instead he sleepwalked his way into the situation we're in now and doddered over stamp duty -He is not the real Deal!! and to add insult to injury he appoints a bloody barrister as his successor in Ministeral post

 

[Humdinger]

Don't panic... its alright ... rte website reporting a massive find of gold in Monaghan by Conroy. We are sorted then !!!!

Gold finds aside, is there an argument that this is precisely the kick in the ass we need. Yes there will be wreckage from recession ... we had however lost the run of ourselves though ... private and public spending with abandon, personal borrowing levels, white elephants and throwing money at projects with little or no return, the eco brigade gone mad.

The 80's forced us to make some hard decisions .....Will this force us to get our house in order and rebase and reorient the economy ... can we become lean, flexible, and hungry again ... we have alot of flab to lose or is that just wishful thinking.

How about building a nuclear power plant for starters ... that could change things ????

 

[Towger]

How about building a nuclear power plant for starters ... that could change things ????

Why not? The EBS want to 3 of them. Sure we already have the foundations for one laid, just need to clear the weeds off the top .

 

[Purple]

Hear, hear. There are certainly plenty of good intentions there, but we need skilled leadership, and we need some way of getting that kind of leadership in charge of our country.

To get the right guy/gal to run the health service we would need to be offering up to 10 million euro a year.

 

[csirl]

i think brian cowan is a very tough customer and he will make very harsh decisions without maybe thinking them through fully first.

I think Brian Cowan is turning into another Gordan Brown.

To get the right guy/gal to run the health service we would need to be offering up to 10 million euro a year.

How about bringing Maggie Thatcher out of retirement, or Jack Welch?

 

[shnaek]

To get the right guy/gal to run the health service we would need to be offering up to 10 million euro a year.

Nah, the health 'service' is fecked no matter who's at the top. One person at the top can do nothing but spend their time fighting vested interests and an angry public. I'd give Michael O'Leary 10 mil for a few years to see what he could do with it though!

 

[Purple]

How about bringing Maggie Thatcher out of retirement, or Jack Welch?

What's needed is someone with a proven record of successfully restructuring a large organisation. They do not have to have any experience in healthcare; they just have to be a good manager. Such a person in the private sector would cost millions. If they did a good job it would be money well spent.

 

[television]

Plenty of people I know have tried to get one but the government cant afford to employ them all and not so many jobs are available . Why is it that people with socialist type views frequently resort to some sort of insincere sarcasm which I personally find to be the lowest form of debate.

This is coming from a person who has said the following about public service workers.

Public sector jobs are by and large for the greedy and the lazy,

Hardly a well constructed and unbias analysis.

And as for bringing up the concept of family to use in an argument. Neither I nor anyone else owe my close family a living. They are well capable of being successful without leeching off the state.

I was making the poin that a lot of those people you are terming lazy and greedy are in fact probably your friends family etc. You really think these people are more lazy then people in the private sector.

Elaborate please on your views for public service reform.

I am no economist but here goes.
1. Have a transparent charters of customer rights accross the public service setting out clear action plans etc for the effective delivery of services.

2. Encentivise public sector workers to deliever according to the charter and sack or demote those who fail to deliver. Starting with managers. Ordinary staff will do the work if they are properly motivated by good managment.

3. Streamline these services by implimenting the computerisation of all services that can be done by computer. (while maintaining a service for those who cannot access computers or dont know how to use them)

4. A series of volentary redundencies accross the Public servise and the oppurtunity for those who avail of this to get tax and other encentives to upskill/retrain for employment in the private sector.

5. Employing quality people from the private sector if necessary to act in CEO s.

You could have fooled me. So why dont you explain to us how much money goes into the health service per person; compare this to elsewhere and also explain why its not as good as for example the health services in Canada and Germany etc.

Yes but Canada and Germany have a history of properly funding health care. There is many structural reasons why we do not get the same bang for our buck as they do. We are playing catch up.

The typical socialist response is to spend spend spend without any regard for the real value of money. I suspect a lot of socialists who preach this attitude want to see the collapse of civilisation and the collapse of money itself. The others are too brainwashed to think through their ideas and see the impracticality of unlimited spending and borrowing.

I dont think I advocated spend spend spend. Where have I said this.

We do not live in a global village. Wakey wakey time again. We live in a world of limited resources and limited money supply of limited value. We compete with others for a share of this value.

Even the greatest advotes of capatialism would aggree with me that the world is becoming smaller in terms of the movement of goods people and services. My point was that this has oppurtunities and potential costs for workers accross the globe. It is not enough as in the past for workers in countries to unit to effectively tackle exploitation, they must unite transnationally. In this great world of global competition you talk about there is winners and loosers. and the loosers are hundreds of millions of people for whom capitialism has failed. Not because capitialism is bad but because it has allowed to go unchecked.

How exactly are workers across the world spposed to unite when you even apparently refuse to vote yes for the Lisbon treaty and unite workers across Europe even more closely ? (And this is coming from someone who was and still is highly skeptical of Lisbon)

A fair point. Your only one.

Even closer to home, the public service needs a pay cut is so they can share the wealth more equitably with the unemployed and with the private sector workers in wider society who in any imminent recession will lose their jobs or take a pay freeze or cut.

OK so workers accross all sectors should distribute income evenly. Now you sound like Karl Marx.
I have said that I have no problem with a pay freeze if I believed it would help the economy.

Of course you would never accept being equal with those in the private sector who ultimately pay your wages.

Public sector workers pay tax.

Why should any public service job be protected when private sector jobs are not.

why do you not turn the argument around a little here. Why not say why do private sector workers not deserve similar terms and conditions as the public sector? What is wrong with a private sector worker looking for stability of employment? "Oh no I am sorry jack you are completing against those chineese and Indians for jobs take what your given and shut up or were off". I know that is the way it is. But the only way to effectively change it is for workers accross the globe to unite not compete.
The public sector is there to serve the public. If public servents are doing their job well and performing their duties, why are they not intitled to secure employment?

 

[television]

This is coming from a public service worker who apparently claims to be able to spell but however is apparently too 'lazy' to spell correctly

Again good constructive stuff. Why is it that when people are loosing the argument the revert to pointless and vindictive jibes about spelling. Typical. But utterly pointless.

Why is it that people with socialist type views frequently resort to some sort of insincere sarcasm which I personally find to be the lowest form of debate.

Interesting observation in light of your last flippant remark. I have systematically deconstructed your argument and that’s the best response you have got. I will not be referring to you in the future.

 

[Humdinger]

I guess its this sort of commentary that makes those in the private sector want to pull their hair out. Billions of taxpayers money gets spent by the public service

I am no economist but here goes.
1. Have a transparent charters of customer rights accross the public service setting out clear action plans etc for the effective delivery of services.

You are saying that one does'nt exist today

2. Encentivise public sector workers to deliever according to the charter and sack or demote those who fail to deliver. Starting with managers. Ordinary staff will do the work if they are properly motivated by good managment.

Public service workers are paid on average very well to do their jobs ...additional incentives should not be required

3. Streamline these services by implimenting the computerisation of all services that can be done by computer. (while maintaining a service for those who cannot access computers or dont know how to use them)

Should have been done a long time ago ... a no brainer though I am sure the bearded brothers in the unions will create a song and dance about it ... was this not supposed to be part of the commitment during the first benchmarking bonanza or was that one of the pieces that got lost in the wave of transparency

4. A series of volentary redundencies accross the Public servise and the oppurtunity for those who avail of this to get tax and other encentives to upskill/retrain for employment in the private sector.

Address those who don't perform like any good organisation and make redundant where necessary... voluntary redundancy does'nt address the underlying issue and is an expensive cop-out

5. Employing quality people from the private sector if necessary to act in CEO s.


Why not say why do private sector workers not deserve similar terms and conditions as the public sector?

Welcome to fantasia.

 

[television]

I guess its this sort of commentary that makes those in the private sector want to pull their hair out. Billions of taxpayers money gets spent by the public service

What you are saying is that you agree with me then? Why make a sweeping statement which actually means nothing of consequence and has absolutly no substance.

1. You aggree with me on point number 1.

2. Performance related pay. You are against that?

3. Your in aggrement with me on.

4. Private sector often looks for Voluntary redundancies before looking for anything else.

Its interesting that you think that fair terms and conditions of employment is fantasy?

 

[television]

Public service workers are paid on average very well to do their jobs ...additional incentives should not be require

Public sector workers with similar qualification levels lag significanly behind the private sector equilivent in terms of pay, and that is after sucessive round of benchmarking. That is a fact.

 

[Humdinger]

I am merely surprised that an orgaisation spending billions, with a multitude of experts and external consultants does'nt have the so called "charter" to deliver services .... quite amazing actually ....its worse than I thought

There is a difference between incentivisation and performance related pay

Computerisation ... go for it ... thought you had agreed to do so years ago

Voluntary redundancies ... sometimes happens though rare enough these days ... see performance related pay above !!!!

Of course fair conditions of employment exist in the non public sector. They are not the fantasy conditions that you describe in public service nirvana.

Public service v private sector pay scales inferior.... maybe we should establish a benchmarking body to sort this out ... no need for any detailed reports or transparent comparisons though ...

 

[Purple]

You are confusing rights of workers to be treated fairly in their contract of employment with individual voting rights.

No, I am saying that one lead to the other. The rest of your post is correct in fact. No confusion here.