The Lisbon vote

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

shnaek said:
But isn't that what democracy is? ;)
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We have a system of representative democracy where the supreme court is the guardian of the constitution. This enables them to ensure that parliament does not impose laws that are populist but infringe on the rights of minority groups. Referenda do not have a mechanism to protect the individual from the tyranny of the majority.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Purple said:
Referenda do not have a mechanism to protect the individual from the tyranny of the majority.
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Good point.

As for the supreme court being guardian of our constitution, is it not the case that our constitution will be inferior to EU law if this treaty is passed - and thus we will no longer be guaranteed this protection from the tyranny of the majority?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

ninsaga said:
So does this mean that if FG were in government (or any other party for that matter) that you would vote Yes? Given the fact that all major parties (FG, Labour, PD's) are in favour of Lisbon.

ninsaga
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My old driving instructor Joe Lawlor once told me he always votes for the little guys because they don't gain in any way from a No result, they do what they do because they care, but FF, PD, FG, all gain from a Yes vote because they are all business related parties.
They are in the business of looking after themselves, their friends and nobody else.
Perhaps if the treaty was possible to read it might change my mind but apparently its totally unreadable.
I understand we, a small nation, have a chance to speak for many people who have no voice on this treaty.
Well how can we make an informed choice if we don't even know what its about.
I said in an earlier thread that I recently saw the complete series of "Yes Minister", this program is a real eye opener and just reaffirms for me that I should be voting a big NO
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Jeez SLF - great advice there - from your driving instructor & a sit-com!
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I've been looking at [broken link removed] and I find the 'WHAT THEY SAID' quotes quite interesting. I suspect some of the quotes would make those most enthusiastic about Lisbon blush.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

S.L.F said:
My old driving instructor Joe Lawlor once told me he always votes for the little guys because they don't gain in any way from a No result, they do what they do because they care,
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The bould Joe must never have heard of the term "niche marketing". Forgive me for being cynical, but I don't believe that Michael Lowry, Jackie Healy Rae or Caoimhghin O'Caolain are necessarily any better than anybody else simply because they're not members of the major parties.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I say vote NO. We're much better off when when our own policitians are in charge and we do things independently - just look at our transport system and health system! Who needs outside advice or law? What have the Romans (oops, I mean the Europeans) ever done for us? :rolleyes:
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Lisbon retains 96% of the EU Constitution, and makes it very clear that EU law will be superior to the Irish Constitution. This means your constitutional rights can be overruled.
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:mad: You must be joking if they think that they can railroad this thru.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

bond-007 said:
A no vote will mean reruns until it is a yes vote.
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True, but it might be reran with a better explanation of what we are actually voting on,

I will be voting no untill I understand what Lisbon is about.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

ubiquitous said:
Forgive me for being cynical, but I don't believe that Michael Lowry, Jackie Healy Rae or Caoimhghin O'Caolain are necessarily any better than anybody else simply because they're not members of the major parties.
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This is why we have a so called democracy, anybody can vote.

The problem is that our Govt does not give both sides to the argument.

noname said:
True, but it might be reran with a better explanation of what we are actually voting on,

I will be voting no untill I understand what Lisbon is about.
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It will never be explained in simple English, if it was anybody could read it.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

noname said:
I will be voting no untill I understand what Lisbon is about.
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That's boll*x. If you don't understand it don't vote. Alternatively trust your democracy whose main parties all urge you to vote Yes. I haven't a baldy clue what Lisbon is about but if Bertie, Brian, Enda, Eamon etc. say it is a disaster to vote No that's good enuff for me. And if Grisly Adams is asking me to vote No then I don't care what it is, I'm voting Yes.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Harchibald said:
That's boll*x. If you don't understand it don't vote.
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Bertie, Brian, Enda, Eamon even Grisly Adams all say we should go out and vote, so who the hell are you to tell someone not to vote because they don't understand something.
Last time I checked we are supposed to live in a democracy that means we all get a vote whether this govt explains it or not.
If the yes bunch wanted us all to vote yes they should explain it to us not ram it down our throats like Nice.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

:mad:
Harchibald said:
That's boll*x. If you don't understand it don't vote. Alternatively trust your democracy whose main parties all urge you to vote Yes. I haven't a baldy clue what Lisbon is about but if Bertie, Brian, Enda, Eamon etc. say it is a disaster to vote No that's good enuff for me. And if Grisly Adams is asking me to vote No then I don't care what it is, I'm voting Yes.
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I totally disagree with your opinion that "if you don't understand it don't vote". I am entitled to vote YES or NO to any referendom or in the case of local or general election to make my decision on who or what I vote for.

As for all our Bertie, Brian, Enda, Eamon, etc telling us how to vote where is the democracy gone.

I for sure will be voting NO because I do not trust our government and our Irish culture is gradually been overshadowed by European entities.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Harchibald said:
I haven't a baldy clue what Lisbon is about but if Bertie, Brian, Enda, Eamon etc. say it is a disaster to vote No that's good enuff for me.
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That is the problem though - why are they telling us it's a disaster if we vote no? What's the disaster? Is it what happened to France and Holland when they voted NO to the constitution?

Any why not tell us the positive reasons to vote YES?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Exactly - I haven't heard a single good reason.

I've heard numerous negatives, e.g. do you want to be on the same side as SF, loonies etc, bad for Ireland if we vote against, if we vote against we will be isolated, we would be ungrateful because of all funds previously received, if we vote against the measures would be adopted by others anyway so we'd lose out, nothing actually changing anyway, just a bit of cleanup etc etc etc...

What are the positives?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I think there will be a big NO vote partly due to the fact that us Irish are rebellious in nature and independent in mind and like to be seen to stand up to the big bullies and just like to be seen/heard full stop.

But I would go along with previous poster Harchibald, if the main parties think voting No would be a bad thing, then I would be inclined to trust them and vote Yes. Afterall, its not often they agree on something so it must be beneficial.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Harchibald said:
That's boll*x. If you don't understand it don't vote. Alternatively trust your democracy whose main parties all urge you to vote Yes. I haven't a baldy clue what Lisbon is about but if Bertie, Brian, Enda, Eamon etc. say it is a disaster to vote No that's good enuff for me. And if Grisly Adams is asking me to vote No then I don't care what it is, I'm voting Yes.
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sorry it is not B*llox,

to tell you the truth I don't trust Bertie (or the rest), so why should I vote yes just because he tells me to?

I feel if FF/FG/Lab & so on want me to vote yes they should convince me.

also I feel that not voting is morally wrong.
 
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