The Lisbon vote
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Duke of Marmalade
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
To paraphrase Lady Bracknell, "No" to Nice was careless, "No" to Lisbon would be irresponsible. The rest of the EU will eventually lose patience with this backwater which has sponged so much from this project.
Time to seriously rewrite De Valera's constititution. Life is more complex now, we can't afford the luxury of referenda on complex issues like how the EU is administered.
Spot on, Purple. And we are kidding ourselves of thinking that we have the luxury of voting "No".
To paraphrase Lady Bracknell, "No" to Nice was careless, "No" to Lisbon would be irresponsible. The rest of the EU will eventually lose patience with this backwater which has sponged so much from this project.
Time to seriously rewrite De Valera's constititution. Life is more complex now, we can't afford the luxury of referenda on complex issues like how the EU is administered.
S
S.L.F
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
I have heard a lot about what we got from the EU.
My understanding was that we gave up our our fishing grounds to join the EEC back in the 70's.
I'm not too sure how many trillion that rakes in every year but I'm sure it makes up for any money we got for our farmers.
I'll be voting a BIG NO!
I have heard a lot about what we got from the EU.
My understanding was that we gave up our our fishing grounds to join the EEC back in the 70's.
I'm not too sure how many trillion that rakes in every year but I'm sure it makes up for any money we got for our farmers.
I'll be voting a BIG NO!
GeneralZod
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S
S.L.F
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
The point I was making was that we paid a huge price to join the EEC.
There was a time once when only Irish boats could legally fish in Irish waters.
I just object to people saying we have sponged from the EU.
It is quite the reverse they have done well out of us.
Now due to over fishing by various fishing fleets Irish fleets have to cut their quotas and thus this will cost more Irish jobs.
The point I was making was that we paid a huge price to join the EEC.
There was a time once when only Irish boats could legally fish in Irish waters.
I just object to people saying we have sponged from the EU.
It is quite the reverse they have done well out of us.
Now due to over fishing by various fishing fleets Irish fleets have to cut their quotas and thus this will cost more Irish jobs.
GeneralZod
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
You're turning reality on it's head there.
You're turning reality on it's head there.
S
S.L.F
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
We must call things as we see them.
I just don't see any benefit from this new treaty.
Nobody I know can read such stuff, we are expected to trust our politicians to know what its all about, and they can't read it either.
Now we can go backwards and forwards on this all night. The reality is that our govt will keep pushing us to vote for this until they get the right result and thus I will vote against it because I just don't trust any govt lead by FF.
Now I have to go to bed or my good lady wife will invoke treaty clause 25464738d sub paragraph 7 which basically means I will sleep on the couch if I don't come to bed now.
Good night Generalzod, we will talk again.
We must call things as we see them.
I just don't see any benefit from this new treaty.
Nobody I know can read such stuff, we are expected to trust our politicians to know what its all about, and they can't read it either.
Now we can go backwards and forwards on this all night. The reality is that our govt will keep pushing us to vote for this until they get the right result and thus I will vote against it because I just don't trust any govt lead by FF.
Now I have to go to bed or my good lady wife will invoke treaty clause 25464738d sub paragraph 7 which basically means I will sleep on the couch if I don't come to bed now.
Good night Generalzod, we will talk again.
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
If EU administration is so complex that the ordinary voter can not understand it then we need to simplify it, and we need a chain of responsibility so decisions can be traced to people and offices responsible.
We in Ireland have vast experience of cock-ups in government departments where no one is held responsible. How bad could this be in a population block 100 times our size?
We cannot go back to the days of absolute unaccountability. I am all for Europe - but not a Europe that works like the beaurocracy in the movie 'Brazil', and certainly not a Europe that presumes to tell voters that they are morons if they use their democratic rights to vote against a position if they believe that that position is the wrong one.
If you truely believe this, then are you saying that the referendum is a sham?
If EU administration is so complex that the ordinary voter can not understand it then we need to simplify it, and we need a chain of responsibility so decisions can be traced to people and offices responsible.
We in Ireland have vast experience of cock-ups in government departments where no one is held responsible. How bad could this be in a population block 100 times our size?
We cannot go back to the days of absolute unaccountability. I am all for Europe - but not a Europe that works like the beaurocracy in the movie 'Brazil', and certainly not a Europe that presumes to tell voters that they are morons if they use their democratic rights to vote against a position if they believe that that position is the wrong one.
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
So does this mean that if FG were in government (or any other party for that matter) that you would vote Yes? Given the fact that all major parties (FG, Labour, PD's) are in favour of Lisbon.
ninsaga
So does this mean that if FG were in government (or any other party for that matter) that you would vote Yes? Given the fact that all major parties (FG, Labour, PD's) are in favour of Lisbon.
ninsaga
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
SLF, the Irish fishing industry is worth less than one billion Euro. At the time we joined the EU it was small and used very old boats. To suggest that the loss of potential development in this sector outweighs the tens of billions of Euro we have received in CAP payments alone, not to mention the billions in structural funds, over the years is ludicrous.
SLF, the Irish fishing industry is worth less than one billion Euro. At the time we joined the EU it was small and used very old boats. To suggest that the loss of potential development in this sector outweighs the tens of billions of Euro we have received in CAP payments alone, not to mention the billions in structural funds, over the years is ludicrous.
Duke of Marmalade
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Re: Lisbon yes or no?
If like all the other 26 countries we had no referendum, would there be a clamour against this Treaty? Not at all, business as usual so far as everyone is concerned. It just happens by a naive quirk of the Bunreacht that the people must be asked.
To be honest the referendum ballot paper should read:
"Vote YES to endorse the Lisbon Treaty and proceed with the EU project"
"Vote NO to reject the LT and commence negotiations for our withdrawal from the EU".
Instead we have the self-indulgent, and maybe self deluding, simple Yes or No to the LT which allows the contrarians a field day.
Not to mention a fall in interest rates to a quarter of what they were before we joined, ditto a quartering of unemployment, ditto a quartering of inflation. Not to mention Ireland being allowed to establish itself as America's quasi tax haven in the EU.
If like all the other 26 countries we had no referendum, would there be a clamour against this Treaty? Not at all, business as usual so far as everyone is concerned. It just happens by a naive quirk of the Bunreacht that the people must be asked.
To be honest the referendum ballot paper should read:
"Vote YES to endorse the Lisbon Treaty and proceed with the EU project"
"Vote NO to reject the LT and commence negotiations for our withdrawal from the EU".
Instead we have the self-indulgent, and maybe self deluding, simple Yes or No to the LT which allows the contrarians a field day.
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
There are some interesting questions posed here by Tom McGurk, that would be worth considering by those in the YES camp:
[broken link removed]
Personally, I have always voted YES for Europe. I am currently reading as much as I can so I can be convinced to vote YES this time - but so far all I read from the YES side are threats and pleads to 'trust us'.
Those arguements are hardly convincing.
There are some interesting questions posed here by Tom McGurk, that would be worth considering by those in the YES camp:
[broken link removed]
Personally, I have always voted YES for Europe. I am currently reading as much as I can so I can be convinced to vote YES this time - but so far all I read from the YES side are threats and pleads to 'trust us'.
Those arguements are hardly convincing.
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
I believe that referenda are a bad idea. They are the last vestage of mob rule.
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
I agree with Tom McGurk. The government does need to answer those questions.
Incidentally I received a piece of government propaganda today about the LT, I assume that this is their interpretation of the treaty.
Where are the arguments for and against the LT that must be produced to the voters?
I agree with Tom McGurk. The government does need to answer those questions.
Incidentally I received a piece of government propaganda today about the LT, I assume that this is their interpretation of the treaty.
Where are the arguments for and against the LT that must be produced to the voters?
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
This is not the way to get a yes vote by any manner or means.
This is not the way to get a yes vote by any manner or means.
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
The Referendum Commission (which is a non-party body) will be sending out info to every home in Ireland. If this is what you received then your assertion that it was “government propaganda” is not correct.
The Referendum Commission (which is a non-party body) will be sending out info to every home in Ireland. If this is what you received then your assertion that it was “government propaganda” is not correct.
Re: Lisbon yes or no?
I received a booklet from the Department of Foreign Affairs. It was 100% pro treaty.