new tenants - late rent advice pls

[Flax]

Get rid of them. I've been sub letting my apartment for years and these people do not improve; they just get worse.

I hate to tell you but most people are total losers when it comes to paying rent. It's quite amazing really.

Give them a months notice and get rid of them.

 

[MrMan]

There is generally some correlation between the performance of the tenant and the attitude of the landlord. It is necessary to realise that tenants are not simply there to improve the bank balance, a level of service must be afforded to them.

 

[Marie]

Agreed Mr.Man! One has to wonder if landlord attitudes of the ferocity expressed here actually help to create tenants who have been mucked around so much they go into the next tenancy bristling with doubts and defensiveness.

For the sake of the tenant I hope sense will prevail. Freezing dark January is a difficult time to traipse round looking for a roof to put over your head soon after you've lost your job.........

 

[Midsummer]

You can terminate this tenancy with no explanation before 6 months.

Mango - are you sure about this ? Even if the rent is up to date ? I have yet to take advice on this issue.

Can you confirm that you have basically given them a free week (22nd v's 29th). If so, I think you have been more than fair considering the few things that were not in place when she moved in.

I've stretched it from the 25th to the 29th. I'm not 100% sure when they moved in - in fact it could have been after the 29th but I know for a fact most items were there by the 29th. I definitely think I'm being more than fair - it's a gesture of goodwill as a last attempt for a peaceful relationship.

If on top of that the owner treats me like a naughty 4-year-old and threatens eviction if I don't shut up or put up I would most certainly activate every mechanism for redress for these (quite serious!) issues.

Marie - are you my tenant Interesting points but I don't see how I'm doing any of that - just wanting my rent on time.

I won't go through the other posts but the latest update is that I spoke with the agent and he is adamant that she DID see the apartment before she signed the lease as obviously it would be irresponsible and asking for trouble otherwise.

He said that it was all going fine - he let her in - showed her around - she signed up - got the keys and then followed him down to the carpark to say she wasn't happy. All that was pending at that stage was the alarm which the agent knew was pending & the small crack in the window which we knew about and were waiting for the builders to fix so it seems she knew about everything (except for the flipping toilet !) when she signed - assuming she looked around properly.

To be honest she's just taking the mick I think and probably caused unending hassle in her last place. I don't know where in Dublin she will find an apartment that doesn't have "traffic" noise - as it is it's a top floor apartment (facing fields !!) so it probably has the least noise possible in an apartment block.

Problem with the agency though - there was mention that another fee would be charged if they were evicted / left to replace them !! I obviously have mug written on my forehead somewhere because I signed up for a % if the annual rent which has already been debited from the first rent cheque and the way I see it if I don't get that annual rent a refund will be due to me. I didn't want to argue about that but the point was made.

Long story short the tenants are getting a letter to say the rent is now due on the 29th and they won't even be getting a text to remind them this time. The morning of the 30th then action will have to be taken.

To the other posters who are giving me the tenant's point of view thanks and I have some very good stories from when I was a tenant too (some you wouldn't believe !) so I am trying to be as fair as possible. All I'm asking is that the people who use my property treat me and it with respect and pay the rent on time so that I can in turn pay my mortgage...

With hindsight I shouldn't have been pushed into a sale with the agency, I should have held out until every last item was in there, I should have got a cleaner in. Next time I think I will just vet the tenants myself (when the year's contract runs out with the agency)...

The agent just want to be able to hand over the key & then run for the hills with your money in their pocket!

so true

 

[DonKing]

Agreed Mr.Man!

For the sake of the tenant I hope sense will prevail. Freezing dark January is a difficult time to traipse round looking for a roof to put over your head soon after you've lost your job.........

It's a business not a charity. It's not the landlord's responsibility to provide accomodation if the tenant can't pay the rent due to losing his job. Will Tesco's give them free food? We have social services who look after people who come into hard times.

Unfortuanately there are many tenants out there who are all too well aware of how they can abuse the system, and end up living rent free for months on end and get away with it. Landlords have to protect there livelihoods/interest and act fast when they suspect they have a problem tenant.

I personally wouldn't have given the free weeks accomodation. It's setting a bad precedent. The tenant has to respect the fact the prompt payment of the rent is critical. I wonder how midsummer's bank manager would react if every month she was late with her mortgage repayments.

I agree that it's in the interest of landlords to fulfill there contractual duties and look after there tenants, however the landlord also needs to be firm and business like to ensure that they don't get taken for a ride.

 

[sam h]

It is interesting that dispite numberous discussions on AAM it is still very unclear about the rights of landlord and tenants. Most of these threads end up being almost "tenant v's landlord". Some of the areas I thought I know before but now I'm not so sure - for example:
- can a landlord evict a tenant without any reason within 6 months?
- after 6 months, is the only way to evict a tenant a very long and protracted trip thru PRTB red tape?
- if there is a one year lease signed & the tenant move out early : does the deposit have to be returned?

The information & support from the PRTB seems to be very limited, they seem to just want to get landlords signed up, take the cash and then just let issues drag out over months, which is unfair to both parties.

 

[Midsummer]

is the only way to evict a tenant a very long and protracted trip thru PRTB red tape?

sam - I'm wondering if you legally have to contact the PRTB first ? If everyone did that when they had problem tenants there would be a lot of tenants with free accomodation out there. I think the only way to do this is to read the RA Act from start to finish which I haven't gotten around to yet I'm sure the PRTB is there to protect tenants not to act as immediate mediators during disputes - I'd say they represent tenants afterwards.

I'm just thinking out loud here.

however the landlord also needs to be firm and business like to ensure that they don't get taken for a ride

thanks Donking - I tried to get her to come to a resolution on the phone instead of just getting angry and that's why I offered the extended rent date. But that's all they're getting !

 

[sam h]

he is adamant that she DID see the apartment before she signed the lease as obviously it would be irresponsible and asking for trouble otherwise.

He said that it was all going fine - he let her in - showed her around - she signed up - got the keys and then followed him down to the carpark to say she wasn't happy.

And thats why you vet tenants yourself, you probably would have picked up on the fact the weren't happy & discussed it further. You would have sorted the problems or walked separate directions! I reckon that unless you have numberous properties, it is best to rent yourself or (as a minimum) have an agreement with the agent that you will have the final say on the tenant. I do not understand how people can hand over an asset of such high value to someone they have never met. If you have a load of properties you have the element of "customer loyalty" and "going elsewhere" with 5+ number of properties....1 or 2 just doesn't do it!!

Midsummer, by the way, was your agreement with the agent to just let the property or to let/manage the property?? Normally with a let ony (usually half a months rent) their responsibily ends once the tenant has the keys & hence the reason they couldn't care less about who is in the property. Let/manage (not so common in Ireland & normally 1 months rent + all expenses.....and can be very expensive as they aren't likely to shop around). It means they will take all the tenants calls & arrange workmen, replacements etc, however, they do tend to be more (well a bit)careful about who is in the property as they will have to deal with the calls and issues. Did you fully understand what you were getting into & the arrangement you had with the agent?

 

[sam h]

sam - I'm wondering if you legally have to contact the PRTB first ? If everyone did that when they had problem tenants there would be a lot of tenants with free accomodation out there. I think the only way to do this is to read the RA Act from start to finish which I haven't gotten around to yet I'm sure the PRTB is there to protect tenants not to act as immediate mediators during disputes - I'd say they represent tenants afterwards.

I was also thinking out loud !! I did manage to get rid a tenant (1 bad apple in a barrel....otherwise very, very lucky!) with 30 day notice ....well dragged to about 50 days but there you go!
My point is that if the tenant goes to the PRTB, as they are intitled...from many posts on AAM it would appear that it can sit in limbo for months. Do you still get rent, can you still access the property with due notice etc.
My point is that there have been many discussions and dispite the RA & the PRTB there are still alot of grey areas.

 

[mercman]

Midsummer - if you are saying all the agent did was show them the property, ran down the stairs and they signed - this sounds pathetic. Why didn't he investigate references, both employment and past tenancy. Frankly I have other views on these people and if you wish I will send you a Private Message. As i first mentioned, I really think that the agency has been very short of what is expected in their business. It could be that you are dealing with a messy tenant and an even worse agent. You haven't mentioned if the agency is registered, but regardless may be easier to press them with a solicitors letter than the PRTB. Anybody in the rentals business knows that you never let people in immediately - a cardinal rule has been broken. Why didn't the agent request your authorisation before handing over keys ?

 

[labernia]

I have a property let out and I have rented. While we went to an agency to find a tenant, we actually did all the showing around ourselves. When we found someone to rent our house we went through everything with the to be tenant ourselves down to what we should provide in the kitchen. It may sound like a lot of work but it does provide a lot of goodwill between the two parties. We agreed between ourselves what we wanted and the agency drew up the contract incorporating what we had agreed. We have had no problems so far because they have nothing to complain about. Everything was agreed in advance. From my personal experience of renting, I have found that, when there is some personal involvement from the landlord things run more smoothly. A friend of mine in England rented her house out. The agency there charges 10% for introduction of tenants, and 15% for introduction and the subsequent management of the property. She choose to pay the 15% as she was moving to another part of the country. She ended up bringing the agency to court because, everytime the tenant rang the agency with a problem , they would ring her and say, for example , you need a plumber here is a list of names. She won her case because she was paying them to find a plumber . Why would she pay 5% extra otherwise. That is why we have chosen to manage it ourselves. Hope you get it sorted

 

[mercman]

labernia - unfortunately we don't have a legal system like that in this country. I don't think the small claims would deal with cases like that cos if they did by heck would it make life easier.

 

[Afuera]

Some of the areas I thought I know before but now I'm not so sure - for example:
- can a landlord evict a tenant without any reason within 6 months?

As far as I know, the answer is yes and no. No, if there is a fixed term lease in place; yes, otherwise (28 days notice would be required).

- after 6 months, is the only way to evict a tenant a very long and protracted trip thru PRTB red tape?

No. If the landlord wants to sell the property, allow a family member to use it, renovate it... (there are a list of other reasons in the RTA 2004) and the tenant does not have a fixed term lease (or the lease is up), then all the landlord has to do is serve adequate notice which states the reason for terminating the lease. If the tenant does not comply with the obligations of the tenancy (there is some leeway given for late payment of rent) they can also be given notice regardless of whether it is a fixed term tenancy or not. For antisocial behaviour the notice required for eviction is only 7 days. In all cases, the PRTB only need to get involved if the tenant disputes the notice and they will have 28 days to bring it to them after the notice has been served.

- if there is a one year lease signed & the tenant move out early : does the deposit have to be returned?

This is definately a grey area. I think the tenant could be liable for the remaining rent until their lease is up (but I have not heard of a case where this has actually happened). There is a problem also in that the tenant has the option of requesting the landlord to assign the lease to someone else. If the landlord does not allow them to do this, the tenant is actually allowed to break the lease legally. If the deposit is witheld, the landlord must be able to justify it.

 

[Midsummer]

Hi folks - thanks again for all your replies. Just another quick update - the letter has gone to the tenants now stating that as a gesture of goodwill the date will be changed but also pointing out that the rent has been late twice already and the original lease still applies.

As for the agency - it is a full management fee (the agency is registered and it's a well known company) and I knew what I was getting into - I have a list of terms. Also it was the best option for me at the time as I just didn't have the time/availability to show tenants around myself etc. for various reasons (I was busy having a baby ). I did find the agency very useful from the point of view of letting people in and organising that sort of thing so it was worth the money as far as I was concerned but I won't be paying a penny more as it wasn't a finders fee it was a management fee and finding a decent tenant should have been part of it.

As it was our first rental we know the drill now so possibly would go it alone in future (after this year).

I'm just hoping now it goes smoothly - if they don't pay again then we'll deal with it and hopefully I won't have further issues with the agent fee-wise..

 

[Cityliving]

Afuera:

Are you sure about the fixed term lease over-riding the RTAct. It seems as far as I understand it that fixed term leases are not important any more as even if you give a 1 year fixed term lease the tenant has in fact a 4 year tenancy.

To that end I would have thought that the whole point of the PRTB etc was to use their rules to decide disputes is that not correct?

I am a landlord so I would appreciate clarification on this

 

[Afuera]

Afuera:

Are you sure about the fixed term lease over-riding the RTAct. It seems as far as I understand it that fixed term leases are not important any more as even if you give a 1 year fixed term lease the tenant has in fact a 4 year tenancy.

Cityliving, unfortunately it's not as simple as saying the fixed term lease will override the RTA. It depends on which aspects of it you consider. For example, the notice period in the lease can not be made any shorter than that specified in the RTA (so you could say the RTA overrides the lease on that point).

Relating to the OPs query though, unless they explicitly have a clause in the fixed term lease that allows it to be broken by the landlord, then they can't evict the tenants unless the terms of the lease are broken by them. The fixed term lease is legally binding and provides protection above what is given in the RTA 2004, since they could be evicted without any reason during the first six months under that legislation.

You're right in what you say about a tenant signing a years fixed lease getting a 4 year tenancy. However, this only kicks in after they have been there for 6 months. For the first 6 months the lease will give them some sort of protection, and after six months they will be protected by both the lease and the Part IV tenancy rules dictated in the RTA. After 12 months, if they do not sign another fixed term lease, they will still be protected under a Part IV tenancy for another 3 years. Part IV tenancies have many breakout clauses though so do not provide much security for a tenant in reality.

I hope that clarifies it a bit for you!

 

[WombleWilly]

If you have signed a fixed term lease for greater than 6 months then giving them notice before 6 months is irrelevant. Most lease agreements give a date rent is due and the manner in which it should be paid. They also state that if rent is late, termination maybe a possibility. The 2004 residential tenancies Act states that if rent is late the landlord must request it in writing and give 14 days notice for the tenant to pay. As far as I have been informed once the tenant complies with this you cannot issue a notice of termination as you cannot contract out of your landlord obligations as stated in the Act, irrespective of your lease. Also if they are repeat offenders i.e. always late with rent you have to go through this procedure every time. Basically once they have their rent paid up after been written to they are in the clear again.

Also if you are issuing a notice to terminate make sure you comply with its format as stated in the Act. If they don't leave ie overholding the property then contact the PRTB, do not kick them out yourself as the penalties for so called illegal eviction are high.

As far as I can see the Act totally favours the tenant and if they want to be a nuisance they can be, however frustrating it can be.

Most of the time you can get them to move on without going down this route but if they are really stubborn or lazy they can be hard to move on.

Absolutely agree. And for this reason I would ensure that any late payments of rent are followed up with requests in writing cc'd to your agent. Verbal is not enough.

One other thing - if the person has claimed to have a grievance, then ask them, in writing, to put the grievances on paper. If they don't, that's their problem. If they do, then at least you have a checklist to sort out, and you've covered yourself.

You could be accused of all sorts by a malicious tenant who knows how to play the system.

 

[Midsummer]

Hi - just a quick update - I was advised by a friend in the legal profession that I would be within my rights to evict based on the breach of the lease (and was advised to do so based on their behaviour). It would then be up to them to go to the PRTB within the timeframe and complain. However was also advised to be careful that the tenants could play dirty. They don't have any grounds and hopefully they're not that type. I'm willing to stand my ground if it comes to it anyway as I have nothing to hide !

if the person has claimed to have a grievance, then ask them, in writing, to put the grievances on paper

Good advice and they haven't done this as yet though they've been asked to by the agency apparently.

 

[REMFAN]

Get rid of them. I've been sub letting my apartment for years and these people do not improve; they just get worse.

I hate to tell you but most people are total losers when it comes to paying rent. It's quite amazing really.

Give them a months notice and get rid of them.

It is amazing how you can make such an ignorant, generalized statement that 'most people are losers when it comes to paying rent'. You come to this conclusion from subletting an apartment?

 

[mercman]

Good Point by Remfan, Flax Does your landlord know you are subletting as 99.9 % of leases do not allow sub-letting !!