new tenants - late rent advice pls

Not if he has signed a fixed term lease agreement, the agreement stands for the agreed fixed term so neither party can break it before the term is up unless an obligation has been breached (bearing in mind the landlord cannot contract out of his duties as stated in the Act). I have contacted the PRTB on this and this is what they say. There are examples of tenants breaking their fixed term early and retention of deposits on the PRTB site. Sometimes you are better off not signing for a fixed term, then you can give the 28 days notice as you say for no reason in the first 6 months.

Not starting an argument! :) I have spoken to the PRTB and a solicitor on this concerning tenants I have not paying rent on time and it started early in the lease too.

But if I thought I could just give them 28 days notice then I would.
 
Midsmmer, we did get most of the stuff back and had their deposit as well so they ended up getting very little of it back. Those tenants were company employees and the company was renting the house from us. Their boss was horrified when we showed him the list of the missing stuff.

We ditched that agent at the time too, the company renting the house had several properties off the agent and we felt that they were more interested in keeping the company as a client than looking after us.
 
When someone starts saying "they know their rights" and they're only in the apartment a couple of weeks then it's certainly not a very could sign. Evict them ASAP.
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I think this is the main point - they're dodge so in the cold light of day we've decided to try and get rid of them. They're too unreasonable and it sounds like they're in it to cause trouble.

spudcounter & stifster - taking into account everything you've said I've looked over the lease agreement (which is a fixed year) which has the residential act as an addendum and it is a bit unclear to me on the 28 days notice.

Basically we would want them out for the main reason that they haven't paid on time or set up a standing order and therefore I would presume that they are in breach of the lease in this regard. Having said that the RT Act states the landlord may give 28 days notice for "non-payment of rent. A 14 day service of notice will issue...failure to comply will result in a 28 day notice of termination" - so this looks like they would have to get a letter every time they're late and can only be evicted for non-payment.

However there is another point "the landlord my terminate this tenancy...for an un-remedied breach of covenant by the tenant. The notice period...is 28 days". So I would again assume that late payment is a breach of the covenant as specified in the lease and I would be within my rights to issue an eviction notice.

Having said all that the addendum is only a summary of the act and I'm not a solicitor so I'm going to take some advice from a friend in that profession before we do anything.

I would also hope that the agency would know exactly what we're within our rights to do as it's their area and are being paid for it !

If they don't leave ie overholding the property then contact the PRTB, do not kick them out yourself as the penalties for so called illegal eviction are high.
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From what I've heard the PRTB are very slow to act so if I did contact them first could I then be at a disadvantaget time-wise if we get to the 6 months ? I would certainly want to avoid an illegal eviction obviously... :(

Hopefully the agency will have some experience of this as the lease agreement was provided by them etc.
 
shesells said:
Midsmmer, we did get most of the stuff back and had their deposit as well so they ended up getting very little of it back. Those tenants were company employees and the company was renting the house from us. Their boss was horrified when we showed him the list of the missing stuff.

We ditched that agent at the time too, the company renting the house had several properties off the agent and we felt that they were more interested in keeping the company as a client than looking after us.
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That's good news - does sound like the company was probably worth more to them than yourselves as a client though not good for their rep. no doubt.
 
Hi Midsummer, if you get definitive advice on how to act could you let us know. The Act and what you can put in a lease seems to be a grey area i.e. if you have a covenant that states if the rent is late then a notice of termination may be issued, will this override having to give them 14 days written notice to pay rent every time they are late which the Act says you must do? I suppose the question is can you protect yourself with a covenant such as this i.e. will it be enforceable? Anyone I have spoken to on this can't give me a straight answer except the PRTB who say you have to go the 14 days written notice route irrespective of what's in the lease. If this is the case the it offers little protection to the landlord. This Act was made in 2004 and it seems it hasn't been tested to any great extent since its enactment.

Good luck, common sense seems to be lost with the PRTB, and it seems that landlords are inherently bad and tenants need all the protection!
 
Sorry Midsummer, just spotted the 'un-remedied' bit of the statement in your lease agreement. This could give weight to the arguement that you have to give them written notice and a period of time to remedy their late rent. Perhaps a way around this is to put a covenant which states that if rent is late more than once then it could result in a notice of termination. Then the first time they are late with rent give them their 14 days notice but also highlight the covenant about being late again will result in termination.

I need a life.....
 
:) I will let you know. I would say that the Act probably supercedes any lease signed by tenants (because I suppose you could put anything in then) but sure will see. The agency didn't seem to think there was a problem issuing an eviction notice "once they had 2 warning letters" so will see what the background behind that is next week when they're back in the office.

I think the only way to really do it if we can't issue a notice on the basis of constantly late rent & breach of covenant then we'll have to issue a 14 day notice letter on the 26th of every month every time they're late and then have an eviction letter ready to go 14 days later so that it can be actioned if they still haven't paid.

Otherwise it seems that the tenant could just not pay rent until he received a 14 day later every single month and even then pay it as late as possible and never get evicted...
 
The notice periods apply from receipt of the 14 day warning and 28 day notice, if you add in postage and a weekend they have already used up 3 weeks of their deposit when the 28 day termination notice is sent out. The PRTB will then take your case, firstly it goes to mediation between both parties then a full hearing if it cannot be resolved. I believe it can take up to six months to get a date for a hearing. (with no rent). If you followed procedure you would probaly win but there is nothing to stop tenant leaving at any stage up to or even the day of the hearing, realistically it will not be worth your while pursuing them. The landlord is legally obliged to register the tenancy and pay the fee. The PRTB should be obliged to act quicker than this. The act appears to be weighted heavily in favour of the tenant, and the delays in the PRTB would appear to further strenghten the hand of the " Professional " tenant who knows how to work the system to their advantage.
 
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Hi - just a quick update. The tenant rang me today out of the blue - she got my number from the person who installed the alarm (I can't complain about this as I'm sure it's on some form that they have or something). Anyway I asked her what all the issues were and in between all of her ramblings I managed to get the following info:

1. They signed the lease without seeing the apartment and thought it was exactly the same as another one they had seen which faced into the courtyard and not the road (which isn't a main road but still has a bit more traffic & therefore noise);
2. Very annoyed at having to clean the place because the toilet was dirty from the builders using it (I wasn't aware of that);
3. Small window has a crack which the builders still haven't fixed despite being asked to several times;
4. They didn't get all the cutlery/dishes/etc. etc. until the 29th and therefore want to pay rent from the 29th (in fact this was my suggestion as she was rambling on and on about the place not being ready).

So I've apologised for any of the inconvenience but pointed out if they signed a lease without seeing the apartment it was hardly within my control as they are both adults ! Secondly I said I can't do anything about the traffic (again it's only an estate road not a main road) but that if they wanted to move out they could & I would refund the deposit provided there was no reason not to according to the lease etc. She said if she finds somewhere quieter she will move I just said fine make sure she gives me notice. She said she was assured that the apartment was sound proofed and in fact they all are but I suppose the traffic noise will still come in the window !

I've agreed that they can move the rent date to the 29th - should I issue a new lease or send a letter to this effect ? I'm a bit reluctant to do this as I don't want it to look like the previous lease was void etc.

I'm not being niave here I'm just trying to be fair - I reckon they started out very disgruntled as they apartment wasn't where they thought it would be and it got worse form there. I do think they're being somewhat unreasonable but I conceded that if they didn't move in until the 29th (and in fact we didn't have it ready until then as that's the date we were told by the agency) then we can move the rent to that date.

So my bottom line is that they set up a standing order and pay the rent by the 29th every month without fail - if not they'll be getting a letter etc.

I'm a bit worried as she said she "has photos" of the dirt (!!) which was basically builders dust and whatever they left in the loo :eek: but the very fact that photos were taken is a bit worrying.

I pointed out that they were given everything they wanted when they asked etc. and all good quality stuff (i.e. we weren't fobbing them off with old stuff) but she said it all should have been there when they moved in. The only things that weren't there on the 29th were a bin, ironing board, toilet brush and that's it - everything else was and they signed the inventory.

Anyway for the sake of fairness I'll move the rent due date but they have one more chance this month - if it's not in on the 29th that's it.

Although I was very polite I would rather avoid an encounter with her as there were a few vague references to where I lived & "maybe we will meet one day" etc. I didn't want to come straight out and say "well I have an agent so that I don't have to meet you" but this seems to be some sort of issue with them that I haven't met them personally. They have my address from the lease of course.

If the rent is even one day late this month that's it but in general I'm a very worried now. I don't think they would have a leg to stand on though saying that they were misled by signing a lease when they didn't see the apartment - they were hardly under duress and it wasn't something I was aware of (I assume if the agent showed them another apartment the general jist was that it was the same size & layout as ours).

Some of her other ramblings included that the agency said no to an alarm (which can't be true as the agent was well aware that the alarm was ordered and pending installation) - and that she had lost her job at some point (?) - alarm bells went off and I said that was none of my business and I changed the subject. Anyway we'll see if the rent is in by Jan 29th or they'll be getting a letter on Jan 30th.

Stress...
 
Midsummer. Your post is noted and after reading it I would say that you are piggy in the middle. Whatever agent you used I would suggest this is where most of the fault lies and tomorrow I, if you, would not be hesitant in telling the agent this. You have paid them a fee by their abuse of bluffing a tenant. They should not of shown another apartment as been the same as yours. The tenants are wrong in picking small things like a bin and bits and pieces as a reason for messing about. After reading yours, I think you might be better ridding yourself of them. Let the agent transfer the tenancy to another apartment, demand their fee back and start again with another credible agent. I am not sure the location of the apartment, (send a Private Message if you require) and somebody should be able to find a decent agent who won't fill perspective tenants with crap simply to generate a fee for themselves. You know stories like this puts others from property investment. As to how you manage to hold your temper together defeats me -- and fair play to you.
 
By the way, you say you can't complain with the alarm company giving out your number. Are you joking ?? This is an alarm company. Giving out personal information breaches all the rules of the security profession - in this case your address and telephone number. If the tenants had a problem they should have contacted the letting agent. How much worse is this going to get ???
 
I know what you're saying. As for the alarm company as it's a monitored alarm I would say my number was on a form the tenants signed when it was installed. Annoying but I had no choice.

It does sound like the agency pulled a fast one and pushed through a sale without all the ends being tied up first. I will have to complain about it and I think the best solution would be for the agency to try and move them (though would say the agency don't want to deal with them anymore either so I doubt that'll happen).

I was just looking for the easiest solution really - I will have to watch my phone in future and not take lots of calls from her as I can tell she's probably going to try and bypass the agent in future.

I'll discuss with the agency in the morning. I kept my temper because I don't want them doing anything rash - I would prefer to have the upper hand in that way. She just wanted to vent so I let her... just this once ! I think she felt she wasn't really treated with respect by the agent and I suppose she's right - having said that some of her demands are a bit ludicrous i.e. traffic noise reduction... :rolleyes:

The awful thing is this is exactly why I got an agent in the first place...
 
Can you confirm that you have basically given them a free week (22nd v's 29th). If so, I think you have been more than fair considering the few things that were not in place when she moved in.

I would put your conversation in writing & I would put a time limit on alllowing her to move (say a month). I would make it clear that this puts a line through all her "complaints" and you won't tolerate late rent in future. You shouldn't need a new lease once you have this all clearly outlined in your letter.

I would be having strong words with the agent who don't seem to have really done their job properly. And (IMO) I would suggest you rent directly next time as you really get a good measure of the tenant when you show them around the property. I reckon you would have picked up how pernickerty this person is and not bothered to rent to them. The agent just want to be able to hand over the key & then run for the hills with your money in their pocket!
 
Alot of landlords posting here it would seem. I do think that they have a point in that the apartment should have been without doubt cleaned thoroughly before tenancy commenced. Simply stating you should have given it a once over or that you weren't aware that the toilets were dirty isn't good enough when you are operating in todays rental market. A tenant has a right to expect such things as a toilet brush, even if it seems trivial. You feel like the victim here as I'm sure the tenant does aswell. This months rent being somewhat late should have been expected when the due date was the 25th, and if you wanted a standing order it should have been set up through your agent.
I don't think it is entirely necessary for the lease to be terminated, but I feel that it would probably best suit you both at this point. I would advise that you use the experience to deal better with your next tenant and might I suggest next agent. Sit down go through everything that went wrong and compile alist of questions to put to your next agent as to how they operate their services. Nothing should be left to chance and don't presume that tenants will accept little disturbances. You are right in that you should have no contact with the tenant, you are paying for that priviledge after all, so if you receive another call, simply tell them to refer to the agent as it should state in their lease that the agent is the point of contact. If she says that the agency isn't helpful I would suggest a meeting with the agent and tenant at their office to get everything out in to the open, theres no point in dealing with hearsay.
I don't doubt that you have the best of intentions with regard to the fact that everything is new etc, but that is what is expected now, so tenants won't be greatful for simply having new appliances as they are paying a premium themselves.
 
Mr.Man you may we well correct in your Post. However, the agency should have pointed these matters out before they even conidered letting the property. It appears that they did not even show the exact property in the first instance. Time to get a refund of agency fee, new letting co and new tenants before matters get out of hand.
 
To be Devil's Advocate for the tenant for just a moment and see it from their perspective. I go to an agency and specify a quiet first-time let in pristine condition. I specify no traffic noise........possibly even the orientation (south-facing) and view. Agent takes me to my ideal rental. It is available from 25th. Payment is presumably by calendar month. I lay down the deposit and arrange with agent to move in on 29th.

I am the tenant from 29th.

However agency then inform me the apartment I am actually going to rent is 'not quite the same', faces a road and is noisier than the one I viewed. In addition when I take up occupancy of this now-less-than-des-res I find a ****ty lavatory and no brush to clean it with, a broken window, no alarm (which had been promised) and also various other normal items of furniture which I had every reason to expect would be present.......and were in fact present in the apartment viewed.

I clean the place up, then am inconvenienced by the installation of items which I had (again!) every reason to understand were already present and functioning.

I am miffed.

If on top of that the owner treats me like a naughty 4-year-old and threatens eviction if I don't shut up or put up I would most certainly activate every mechanism for redress for these (quite serious!) issues.

As a poster noted above - it's a business contract. If the tenant is not living in the apartment they were shown and accepted there is probably an aspect of the transaction which contravenes the Trades Description Act.

You - the owner - have resolved what you could to the best of your ability. Nevertheless fundamentally the tenant wants an apartment in a secluded location without noise. This they don't have. Whilst you might be entitled legally to despatch the tenant with a 14 day notice it is questionable if morally such an action would be justified given that the muddle is not of either your, or the tenant's, making.

Just my tuppence worth...........
 
However, the agency should have pointed these matters out before they even conidered letting the property. It appears that they did not even show the exact property in the first instance. Time to get a refund of agency fee, new letting co and new tenants before matters get out of hand.
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Agreed
 
Midsummer -- there you are. All arrows are heading in the direction of the letting agent. Get yourself worked up enough to call them and demand a refund and recourse from them.
 
You can terminate this tenancy with no explanation before 6 months. If this is causing you such a headache you might be better to look at this option. As far as I know you have to give 28 days notice.

You need to act quickly otherwise you may find yourself battling with the PRTB and believe me this is the one of the slowest acting gov body you can imagine.

mangos
 
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