Lisbon defeated what happens next ?

It never makes sence to spoil a vote.
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Why not?

I thought it rather strange that the rural community voted so heavily against the treaty, given the massive grants and subsidies the farmers received from the EU in times past.
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Not everyone in rural communities are farmers.
 
television said:
It never makes sence to spoil a vote.
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I would disagree. Spoilt votes are counted. Votes that aren't cast aren't counted at all. So if someone takes the time to turn up and the spoil a vote it indicates disaffection rather than disinclination.

The classic spoilt vote was Dustin the Turkey in the presidential election. People spoilt their vote by adding his name to the ballot paper. It occurred with such frequency in some constituencies that it was actually counted.
 
uiop said:
After I clearly explained my lack of understanding of this treaty apart from uncertainty about taxation, how can you ask me this question and expect an authoritative response ? Do you not get what I said ?
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Because you raised very specific concerns about tax issues in the treaty, as if these were negatives about it.

uiop said:
What I hope will now happen is for an opt out of any tax harmonisation to be included .....
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uiop said:
Is it beyond the power of those who negotiated this treaty for us to have added in a clause protecting our low corporation tax rate and/or our tax rate in general ?.....
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uiop said:
...our government still did not manage to get us any opt outs whatsoever to do with tax. ....
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AFAIK (and I could be wrong and please correct me if I am) theres nothing in the Lisbon treaty to do with corporation tax, tax harmonisation or indeed our tax system. Also we do have the power of veto.

What has been suggested is that other countries could create a common tax policy between them, which would put pressure on Ireland to join up with that, especially if it causes trade difficulties. But that can happen now even with out the treaty.

So no tbh I don't "get" what you said at all.
 
AFAIK theres nothing in the Lisbon treaty to do with corporation tax,
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Interesting. 'As Far As I Know'. Do you know this for certain?

Here is a typical example from the Treaty of Lisbon text;

Article 7 shall be amended as follows: (a) throughout the Article, the word "assent" shall be replaced by "consent", the reference to breach "of principles mentioned in Article 6(1)" shall be replaced by a reference to breach "of the values referred to in Article 2" and the words "of this Treaty" shall be replaced by "of the Treaties";
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(Just noticed that you've edited your post.)
 
so-crates said:
I would disagree. Spoilt votes are counted. Votes that aren't cast aren't counted at all. So if someone takes the time to turn up and the spoil a vote it indicates disaffection rather than disinclination.

The classic spoilt vote was Dustin the Turkey in the presidential election. People spoilt their vote by adding his name to the ballot paper. It occurred with such frequency in some constituencies that it was actually counted.
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Dissatisfaction aginst whom exaclty? who benEfits exaclty a spoilt vote. Its counted as a spoilt vote it has no affect. Its worthless.
 
uiop said:
And you didnt help answer those concerns. I was quite honest about my ignorance. Instead you thought that asking questions rhetorical or not was helping but this not true when specifically addressed to me. I came here to learn , not to teach.
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I wasn't trying to help you. You commented on tax issues so I wanted clarification on what part of the treaty you were talking about.

uiop said:
Which english language sentence constructions posted by myself do you have difficulty with ?
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I just thought you knew something of those issues, I realise now you don't. AFAIK none of that is in the treaty.
 
rmelly said:
Well for a start there would be no foreign minister, and the president would be elected.
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That's what you want. Not necessarily what the EU wants. The EU consists of representative democracies which agreed via their elected representatives that the Lisbon treaty was what they wanted. The fact the it did not line up with what you want does not mean it's not the EU "we" want
 
uiop said:
I already explained my limited knowledge of the treaty in black and white. I came to learn something at this forum. Not to teach anything. I explained this clearly in the previous posts. I dont believe you can prove with certainty that Lisbon did'nt mean a threat to our low corporation tax. Otherwise how come Libertas has gotten away with claiming it has for so long ? And our governmnt were not able to prove ( and I dont mean with just words and election type promises) to the electorate that it was otherwise ?....
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I'm simply saying AFAIK its not in the treaty, which was brought up in many debates already. You don't seem to be aware of that. But lets be honest the Govt and the yes side overall did a dire job in presenting the treaty, and the No side played a much smarter campaign and picked holes in the treaty and played to peoples fears. Many of which aren't in the treaty. Which just illustates how poor most people are looking through the smoke and mirrors.
 
diarmuidc said:
That's what you want.
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Fair point, but the people of Europe deserve the opportunity to vote on this. Given that most of the Irish political parties were in favour, had this been ratified in parliament, it would have pasesd - clearly against the wishes of the population.

Not necessarily what the EU wants.
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Is it reasonable to assume that the parliaments of the other 26 member states may not represent the views of their people? We know this is the case in France and the Netherlands. Not holding referendums this time around was an act of cowardice on the part of these and the other 6 countries who held or planned to hold referendums on the original constitution.
 
uiop said:
I already explained my limited knowledge of the treaty in black and white. I came to learn something at this forum. Not to teach anything. I explained this clearly in the previous posts. I dont believe you can prove with certainty that Lisbon did'nt mean a threat to our low corporation tax. Otherwise how come Libertas has gotten away with claiming it has for so long ? And our governmnt were not able to prove ( and I dont mean with just words and election type promises) to the electorate that it was otherwise ?





Attacking me directly with such nonsense is a disgraceful thing to say. You have no basis for that statement. I am too much of a gentleman to even enter such a nasty dialogue as you have earned.
Please leave me alone now and in future. You have not added to the thread topic but instead have brought nastiness to it.
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Did you even vote? If not you have nothing to add to this thread.
 
rmelly said:
Fair ... Not holding referendums this time around was an act of cowardice on the part of these and the other 6 countries who held or planned to hold referendums on the original constitution.
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Bravery isn't a requirement. Besides it was done very deliberately and I'd suggest cynically.
 
rmelly said:
Fair point, but the people of Europe deserve the opportunity to vote on this. Given that most of the Irish political parties were in favour, had this been ratified in parliament, it would have pasesd - clearly against the wishes of the population.


Is it reasonable to assume that the parliaments of the other 26 member states may not represent the views of their people? We know this is the case in France and the Netherlands. Not holding referendums this time around was an act of cowardice on the part of these and the other 6 countries who held or planned to hold referendums on the original constitution.
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The fact is the people in France, the Netherlands, Germany or anywhere else don't really care that much about it. It never featured as a major issue in their general elections. Economic and social issues closer to home dominated. Parliamentary democracy forces people to prioritise what's really important. Take Scotland for example, the desire to break free from the control of Westminster is strong there and manifests itself in a political party - the SNP. People in Scotland care enough about the issue to vote members of this party into parliament. In the rest of the UK, there now is UKIP of course which proclaims its desire to leave the EU. If the EU is the terrible undemocratic beast so many seem to believe, they can vote for this party in such numbers as would allow them to leave. In any case, the Tories are drifting more and more this way anyway so that may be an option too.

The point is, there is an avenue open for all the peoples of Europe to limit the EU or get out of it altogether if it really is that bad. They live in democracies. They just have to care enough about it. The fact that it doesn't feature as an issue says to me that for all the moaning and complaints the EU isn't that bad. If it was it would be a major election issue.
 
Was this treaty a major issue in our last General Election? No, yet we voted No, so the above isn't an appropriate gauge of the ill will the people of Europe may or may not have for the EU.

Why is everyone so afraid of them having the opportunity to decide their own fate? Is it the realisation from all in the EU that they have lost touch with the people they claim to represent and work for?
 
rmelly said:
Was this treaty a major issue in our last General Election? No, yet we voted No, so the above isn't an appropriate gauge of the ill will the people of Europe may or may not have for the EU.

Why is everyone so afraid of them having the opportunity to decide their own fate? Is it the realisation from all in the EU that they have lost touch with the people they claim to represent and work for?
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Yeah we voted No. Cos it's so easy to vote No. The fact remains those other countries that heroic Ireland has sacrificed its influence for couldn't care enough about it to make it a general election issue. They grumble and moan but it's no big deal. What we're going to have to cope with in the future is a big deal however although clearly not many people can see it yet.
 
More scaremongering - you guys will never learn...

Have you forgotten the French & Dutch No votes? Did the world fall apart? There WILL be a Plan 'C'. And maybe it will be a democratic one.
 
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