Lisbon defeated what happens next ?

Nemesis said:
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This 'the Taoiseach didn't read it' line is getting really tiresome now. Brian Cowen was Minister for Foreign Affairs during the negotiations under the Irish Presidency of the EU that finalised the deal. He was intimately involved in its drafting and he didn't have to sit down and read the treaty cover to cover to know what's in it. Clearly, the mistake he made was actually giving a frank answer to a question. Bet he wished he just lied now.

The McCreevy issue is different. As far as I'm concerned that was a really stupid statement he gave and he obviously completely misjudged the public mood on the whole debate. He certainly looked like a politician "out of touch".
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Cowen was displaying a great degree of arrogance by claiming he negotiated the treaty and so did not read it. it shows a lack of political judgement. This document may be long and complex but his backround is in law. Even if he did negotiate it I would have expected he would have read it. Any solicitor worth his salt will always read the fine print and advise his client to do the same.
 
Sunny said:
The Green party were neutral but they listed reasons to vote for and against the treaty. The self ammending aspect was one of the reasons against.

http://www.greenparty.ie/en/content/download/15600/197045/file/EU_Reform_Treaty_LR_noreg.pdf
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I find the Green Party document a bit strange and contradictory in places. On the one hand it says this treaty and any further significant changes to EU workings must be put to Irish voters who have the final say and then it says the treaty would be self-amending. Think someone should have spent more time reconciling the cases for and against the treaty before they published that document.
 
Nemesis said:
I find the Green Party document a bit strange and contradictory in places. On the one hand it says this treaty and any further significant changes to EU workings must be put to Irish voters who have the final say and then it says the treaty would be self-amending. Think someone should have spent more time reconciling the cases for and against the treaty before they published that document.
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I agree and I don't think the treaty is self ammending but this is from a party that is in Government and people are saying there shouldn't have been a referendum as elected politicians are more than capable of deciding for us on such compilcated matters. I think our politicians have shown they are not any more capable than the people posting here on making an informed decision. The Czech version of the Financial Times did a survey in the Czech Republic recently as well and found that elected politicans generally had no idea what they were voting on. I reckon it would be the same across Europe.
 
Nemesis said:
I find the Green Party document a bit strange and contradictory in places. On the one hand it says this treaty and any further significant changes to EU workings must be put to Irish voters who have the final say and then it says the treaty would be self-amending. Think someone should have spent more time reconciling the cases for and against the treaty before they published that document.
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Is confusing alright.
 
Sunny said:
I agree and I don't think the treaty is self ammending but this is from a party that is in Government and people are saying there shouldn't have been a referendum as elected politicians are more than capable of deciding for us on such compilcated matters. I think our politicians have shown they are not any more capable than the people posting here on making an informed decision. The Czech version of the Financial Times did a survey in the Czech Republic recently as well and found that elected politicans generally had no idea what they were voting on. I reckon it would be the same across Europe.
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Well, I think by the time this saga is all over, we'll all be able to get jobs across Europe as experts on EU treaties and institutions the way this is going :)
 
I think a general consusus is emerging. After close analysis and debate among all on here it is clear that a no vote was the most rational decision to make based on the actual treaty.

All we have to do now is wait for the Yes sides scaremongering and dirty tricks for Lisbon 2.
 
television said:
I think a general consusus is emerging. After close analysis and debate among all on here it is clear that a no vote was the most rational decision to make based on the actual treaty.
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I don't agree. From my point of view, I'm just sick of this debate. How can you reason with people who "know more" about Corporation tax than ISME, abortion than the Catholic church and Irish Neutrality than the Irish government ?

The NO side are in for a tough lesson on European realpolitik.

That's me done in this thread.
 
I haven't forgotten any principles of democracy (although clearly television has me down as some kind of fascist :)) and I certainly wouldn't agree there's a consensus here to support the No vote. It's clear that this debate will rage on and on over the months ahead and into next year and right now I too am sick of debating Lisbon. I know I'll be playing an active part in any future Yes campaign but right now it's time for a break. I'm sure television will not want to leave it just yet though :)
 
Nemesis said:
I haven't forgotten any principles of democracy (although clearly television has me down as some kind of fascist :)) and I certainly wouldn't agree there's a consensus here to support the No vote. It's clear that this debate will rage on and on over the months ahead and into next year and right now I too am sick of debating Lisbon. I know I'll be playing an active part in any future Yes campaign but right now it's time for a break. I'm sure television will not want to leave it just yet though :)
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diarmuidc said:
I don't agree. From my point of view, I'm just sick of this debate. How can you reason with people who "know more" about Corporation tax than ISME, abortion than the Catholic church and Irish Neutrality than the Irish government ?

The NO side are in for a tough lesson on European realpolitik.

That's me done in this thread.
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Ditto for me guys. Apologies for not posting in the last few days but pressure of work and all that. Think every angle has been covered and we are really just rehashing everything all over again. With the possible exception of the fishing angle which is new - can anyone name a single country in the world that become rich from fishing? Thought not, let's knock that one on the head right now.
 
room305 said:
With the possible exception of the fishing angle which is new - can anyone name a single country in the world that become rich from fishing? Thought not, let's knock that one on the head right now.
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Iceland? According to Irish Times in the top 10 GNP per capita in World. Anyway, I am also signing off. See you all next Ref.
 
Yeah I think it has been done to death at this stage. Useful debate though with good points on both sides.
 
See its a clear consenus emerging SLF.I think those who read the Greens litrature on the treaty might have shut a few people up. Where they confirmed many of the so called stupid arguments aganist the treaty as genuine reasons for voting no.
 
i see the government is setting up a special commission to try to find out why the people voted no...i wonder if the vote had gone the other way,would they be as quick to set up a commission to find out why the people voted yes? its just laughable!
 
starlite68 said:
i see the government is setting up a special commission to try to find out why the people voted no...
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I wonder how many millions it will cost?

I mean lets face facts all the fools have to do is take a look at AAM and it will cost nothing.

Another reason to vote NO methinks.
 
I thought we lived in a democratic country?

The people democratically voted NO but that wasn't right. So I can see a major push over the coming months and perhaps another vote, until we vote YES.

I can see the Gov's angle now. It will focus on the recent job losses, the recession, the fact that we are bad Europeans and people won't buy anything from us or set up here. Basically scare us into fearing for our jobs - that should do it - then have another vote and you will get a YES.
 
They wont put it to us like the last time as they know we will vote no again. They will scare us into it by saying in or out of EU - that should get the yes they want.
Just on a side issue, why do we all know more than the politicians? Why do the majority of them want a yes yet the majority of us want a no? You would think that they are more clued in than us and should know whats better for the country than we do.
Maybe i live in fantasy land...ho hum..
 
RMCF said:
I can see the Gov's angle now. It will focus on the recent job losses, the recession, the fact that we are bad Europeans and people won't buy anything from us or set up here. Basically scare us into fearing for our jobs - that should do it - then have another vote and you will get a YES.
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I don't think so!

They promised to keep the economy strong if they got back in and that had nothing to do with LT

and where are we now?
 
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