Another abortion referendum?

[T McGibney]

Would it be more important to know why a woman would be willing to lie? To go through the hoops that the government will decide on in order to prove that one is suicidal.

Why do the anti abortion groups believe that many many Irish women will lie. Are we women such awful human beings that we will lie in order to procure an abortion.

Are we different to men in that respect.

Women are no different to men, but please don't tell me that you believe that Irish people are so honourable and principled that they will never, ever lie in order to gain an advantage or obtain a bureaucratic concession for themselves.

 

[Firefly]

Studies confirm that abortion is linked to an increased risk of suicide.

I'm sure you have a link for this. In any case, Truthseeker has provided opposing references, which, for me, is clear proof that legislating for suicide is madness....not only is determining whether a woman is suicidal or not a subjective matter, and open to abuse, we now have conflicting evidence on whether unplanned pregnancies or abortions are linked to suicide. This is a major can of worms.

 

[T McGibney]

Would it be more important to know why a woman would be willing to lie? To go through the hoops that the government will decide on in order to prove that one is suicidal.

Why do the anti abortion groups believe that many many Irish women will lie. Are we women such awful human beings that we will lie in order to procure an abortion.

Are we different to men in that respect.

This is worth reading.
http://www.independent.ie/national-...ice-that-could-put-lives-at-risk-3276226.html

By Gemma O'Doherty

Saturday October 27 2012

STAFF at some taxpayer-funded pregnancy counselling services are putting women's lives at risk and breaking the law, an undercover probe has revealed.
The investigation was carried out over several months by a team of women, some from the pro-life movement, who secretly recorded counsellors at 11 locations around the country.
Some of the advice they gave about abortion was illegal, according to a leading lawyer, and some was medically dangerous, a top doctor says.
In several instances, women were told to hide their abortions from their doctors, a course of action that could endanger life if post-surgery abortion complications remain undiagnosed.
A small percentage of women suffer perforation of the womb following terminations, which can remain undetected but can cause problems in later pregnancies.
[broken link removed] has viewed and listened to the investigation tapes.
Following a five-hour examination of the material, the HSE has launched an investigation.
A spokesperson said that any potential breaches of the legislation will be pursued.
[broken link removed] at Dublin's Store Street station are also looking into the findings of the probe.
At the Dundalk office of the Irish Family Planning Association (IFPA), a client was told she could lie to her doctor about having had an abortion, advice that could put a woman's life at risk, Professor Sam Coulter Smith, the master of Dublin's [broken link removed], has warned.

 

[orka]

I suppose it is worth reading but what it primarily says to me is that we would be better off for women’s health to have our own abortion regime here where it wasn’t treated as sinful, shameful and something that should be hidden and lied about – where women could be open with their medical providers about what they had done and wanted to do.

 

[orka]

Why do the anti abortion groups believe that many many Irish women will lie. Are we women such awful human beings that we will lie in order to procure an abortion.

I don’t think anyone thinks anything other than a tiny proportion of women would do what you suggest.

I am pro-choice but come on – of course many many women will lie to get an abortion – they do it all the time in the UK where, contrary to popular opinion, abortion is not legally available on demand. The main reason for abortion there is that there is a risk to the woman’s physical or mental health, greater than if the pregnancy continued. Now, who thinks that 150,000+ women a year would be risking their physical or mental health by continuing with a function that many other women go through and come through with no major consequences? A lot of abortions in the UK are purely for social reasons (got pregnant, inconvenient, get abortion) – but the women have to jump through the hoops of getting two doctors to certify that, most likely, their mental health will be affected by going through with the pregnancy. I have a relative who is a GP in the UK and she would get women coming in saying they wanted abortions: ‘why?’ – ‘I don’t want it’ – ‘would you be able to cope’ – ‘yes, but I just don’t want it’ – ‘well, you have to tell me you can’t cope or I can’t sign off on this’ – ‘okay, I can’t cope’. Anytime she didn’t sign, the woman would always be able to get sign-offs elsewhere.
I don’t agree with the hoop jumping or pretending there is no demand for on-demand abortion – far better to just be honest about motivations.

 

[michaelm]

I'm sure you have a link for this. In any case, Truthseeker has provided opposing references, which, for me, is clear proof that legislating for suicide is madness....

I wouldn't over rely on wikipedia, that best that page says is that the difference ranges from none to some. There are many reputable studies showing that abortion is detrimental to mental health. Hard figures also show that suicide rates for women in the year after birth are lower than for women in general, with rates among those who abort being higher (six times higher in comprehensive study in Finland).

Abortion should either be legalised, or not, but not brought in on the pretence that it is a positive step for the prevention or treatment of suicide.

 

[dereko1969]

This is worth reading.
http://www.independent.ie/national-...ice-that-could-put-lives-at-risk-3276226.html

It's not worth reading, the Independent presented this as if they'd done the research - they hadn't, they were shown edited out of context material presented by a group with an agenda. I'm not saying that some of the things weren't said but I wouldn't trust the source.

I wouldn't over rely on wikipedia, that best that page says is that the difference ranges from none to some. There are many reputable studies showing that abortion is detrimental to mental health. Hard figures also show that suicide rates for women in the year after birth are lower than for women in general, with rates among those who abort being higher (six times higher in comprehensive study in Finland).

Abortion should either be legalised, or not, but not brought in on the pretence that it is a positive step for the prevention or treatment of suicide.

So that would be a no then to the question about giving examples of these studies?

 

[T McGibney]

It's not worth reading, the Independent presented this as if they'd done the research - they hadn't, they were shown edited out of context material presented by a group with an agenda. I'm not saying that some of the things weren't said but I wouldn't trust the source.

Gemma O'Doherty stands over her story and has since reinforced it in separate articles. Are you saying its untrue?

 

[Purple]

To be blunt I think that's a risible, and rather insulting, correlation. Someone else might as well claim that the Irish pro-choice lobby all wish to oppress women on the basis that certain countries with pro-abortion lobbies and policies have very poor women's rights and a particularly creepy taste for aborting female babies.

I agree.
I'm a social liberal and an atheist. I am in favour of gay marriage, equal rights, a secular state etc.
If I lived in the USA I would be in favour of gun control and I’m against capital punishment in all circumstances.

My views on abortion have nothing to do with religion or conservative views. They are based on my atheist view that there’s no afterlife and so the life we have here is all the more precious and therefore the life of the unborn is also precious.

 

[michaelm]

So that would be a no then to the question about giving examples of these studies?

Well, I'm not sure I was asked. Google is your friend, although I suppose people will find what they want to find, like my quick search which found . .

A 1995 study by A.C. Gilchrist in the British Journal of Psychiatry found that in women with no history of psychiatric illness, the rate of deliberate self-harm was 70 percent higher after abortion than after childbirth.
A 1996 study in Finland by pro-choice researcher Mika Gissler in the British Medical Journal found that the suicide rate was nearly six times greater among women who aborted than among women who gave birth.
A 2002 record-linkage study of California Medicaid patients in the Southern Medical Journal, which controlled for prior mental illness, found that suicide risk was 154 percent higher among women who aborted than among those who delivered.
By 2003, the data was so compelling that a team of researchers published in the Obstetrical & Gynecological Survey (OGS), one of the top three obstetrical journals in the United States, identified a number of studies that found that “induced abortion increased … [the incidence] of mood disorders substantial enough to provoke attempts at self-harm” and concluded that, as a matter of medical ethics, “any woman contemplating an induced abortion should be cautioned about the mental health correlates of an increased risk of suicide or self-harm attempts as well as depression.”
A 2005 study by Mika Gissler in the European Journal of Public Health found that abortion was associated with a six-times-higher risk for suicide compared to birth.
A 2006 study by New Zealand researcher David M. Fergusson in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, which controlled for a prior history of depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation (wanting to take one’s own life or thinking about suicide), found that 27 percent to 50 percent of women after abortion reported suicidal ideation. Mr. Fergusson found that the risk of suicide was three times greater for women who aborted than for women who delivered.
A 2010 study by Natalie P. Mota in the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry found that “abortion was associated with an increased likelihood of several mental disorders - mood disorders … substance abuse disorders … as well as suicidal ideation and suicide attempts.”
A 2011 meta-analysis in the British Journal of Psychiatry found an 81 percent increased risk of mental trauma after abortion.

Arguments as to whether or not abortion is detrimental to mental health notwithstanding, I've yet to see a study which claims that it is beneficial to those with mental health problems.

​

 

[oldnick]

Purple -I know many of your views and know that you would have nothing in common with many of those who call themselves pro-life,especially in the USA.

All I am saying is that - insulting and as risible as TMcGibney may find it - there is a corrolation between those USA states (and many nations) that are most anti-abortion and also pro-capital punishment, pro-gun lobby, anti-gay etc etc.

It's not an argument or an opinion. It's a fact which I find interesting and somewhat puzzling.

 

[T McGibney]

All I am saying is that - insulting and as risible as TMcGibney may find it - there is a corrolation between those USA states (and many nations) that are most anti-abortion and also pro-capital punishment, pro-gun lobby, anti-gay etc etc.

Just to clarify, what I found risible was this bit.

I'm not talking about Ireland where most pro-life champions such as the Roman Catholic clergy are,of course, very much in favour of equal rights for women ,gays and such basic rights as,say, contraception. It's the other countries that have this hypocritical attitude,not here.

 

[michaelm]

there is a corrolation between those USA states (and many nations) that are most anti-abortion and also pro-capital punishment, pro-gun lobby, anti-gay etc etc.

Interesting and puzzling as you may find it, might you accept that such is not relevant?

 

[Firefly]

Abortion should either be legalised, or not, but not brought in on the pretence that it is a positive step for the prevention or treatment of suicide.

I agree.

 

[oldnick]

Michaelm -
I don't know the relevence of the undoubted fact that the most anti-abortionist states/ nations/lobby groups/people also have those other laws,beliefs etc that I described which are contrary to human rights.
I'm just mentioning the fact in the hope someone can explain why it is so.

TMcGibney :- I also find it risible that the RC clergy claim to respect human life considering their attitudes, beliefs,behaviour and history. That's what you meant isn't it?

 

[truthseeker]

I wouldn't over rely on wikipedia...

Which is why I pointed out the references are at the bottom of the page to the claims made (The American Psychological Association and the U.K. National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health). The links bring you to academic peer reviewed papers.

The point is, the available evidence from different studies have been collated and the collation of such data has found

In December 2011, the U.K. National Collaborating Centre for Mental Health published a systematic review of available evidence, similarly concluding that abortion did not increase the risk of mental-health problems.

 

[michaelm]

I don't know the relevence . . I'm just mentioning the fact in the hope someone can explain why it is so.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[truthseeker]

Well, I'm not sure I was asked. Google is your friend, although I suppose people will find what they want to find, like my quick search which found . .

A 1995 study by A.C. Gilchrist in the British Journal of Psychiatry found that in women with no history of psychiatric illness, the rate of deliberate self-harm was 70 percent higher after abortion than after childbirth.
A 1996 study in Finland by pro-choice researcher Mika Gissler in the British Medical Journal found that the suicide rate was nearly six times greater among women who aborted than among women who gave birth.
A 2002 record-linkage study of California Medicaid patients in the Southern Medical Journal, which controlled for prior mental illness, found that suicide risk was 154 percent higher among women who aborted than among those who delivered.
By 2003, the data was so compelling that a team of researchers published in the Obstetrical & Gynecological Survey (OGS), one of the top three obstetrical journals in the United States, identified a number of studies that found that “induced abortion increased … [the incidence] of mood disorders substantial enough to provoke attempts at self-harm” and concluded that, as a matter of medical ethics, “any woman contemplating an induced abortion should be cautioned about the mental health correlates of an increased risk of suicide or self-harm attempts as well as depression.”
A 2005 study by Mika Gissler in the European Journal of Public Health found that abortion was associated with a six-times-higher risk for suicide compared to birth.
A 2006 study by New Zealand researcher David M. Fergusson in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, which controlled for a prior history of depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation (wanting to take one’s own life or thinking about suicide), found that 27 percent to 50 percent of women after abortion reported suicidal ideation. Mr. Fergusson found that the risk of suicide was three times greater for women who aborted than for women who delivered.
A 2010 study by Natalie P. Mota in the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry found that “abortion was associated with an increased likelihood of several mental disorders - mood disorders … substance abuse disorders … as well as suicidal ideation and suicide attempts.”
A 2011 meta-analysis in the British Journal of Psychiatry found an 81 percent increased risk of mental trauma after abortion.

Arguments as to whether or not abortion is detrimental to mental health notwithstanding, I've yet to see a study which claims that it is beneficial to those with mental health problems.

​

All the text above comes from this article which was written by 2 members of AUL - an american pro-life organisation.

So all it proves is they they cherry picked particular studies, I notice there is no information on the quality of the studies chosen nor links given to the academic papers.

 

[Purple]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I use a 24 hour clock... and it's digital so when it breaks it says EE.EE

 

[michaelm]

. . all it proves is they they cherry picked particular studies, I notice there is no information on the quality of the studies chosen nor links given to the academic papers.

Indeed. I did say . .

Google is your friend, although I suppose people will find what they want to find, like my quick search which found . .

No doubt anyone who wants to find said articles will find them. I'll get you started http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/199/3/180