Another abortion referendum?

[truthseeker]

No doubt anyone who wants to find said articles will find them.

I think its clear if you quote studies used in an article written by 2 pro-lifers that you will get a pro-life slant.

On the contrary I posted links to academic studies made by groups with no agenda either way who reviewed available evidence in the medical literature.

I know which studies Id consider more relevant.

 

[Purple]

I think its clear if you quote studies used in an article written by 2 pro-lifers that you will get a pro-life slant.

On the contrary I posted links to academic studies made by groups with no agenda either way who reviewed available evidence in the medical literature.

I know which studies Id consider more relevant.

In any debate on any issue it's hard to find academics who don't have an agenda either way.

 

[michaelm]

I think its clear if you quote studies used in an article written by 2 pro-lifers that you will get a pro-life slant.

On the contrary I posted links to academic studies made by groups with no agenda either way who reviewed available evidence in the medical literature.

I know which studies Id consider more relevant.

Indeed. Or you posted a link to wikipedia and I mentioned numerous studies which are easy to find. I did link above to the study reported in the British Journal of Psychiatry and, if you're interested, have a look at , which concludes that "The low rate of deaths from external causes suggests the protective effect of childbirth, but the elevated risk after a terminated pregnancy needs to be recognized in the provision of health care and social services."

 

[truthseeker]

Or you posted a link to wikipedia...

Which I explained had the academic references at the bottom of the page. Not hard to find if you just scroll down.

 

[circle]

Indeed. Or you posted a link to wikipedia and I mentioned numerous studies which are easy to find. I did link above to the study reported in the British Journal of Psychiatry

Yes, that's a peer-reviewed article, but the reviews are negative and point out the flaws in the methodology used.

Ben Goldacre (respected Epidemiologist & Journalist) has a detailed response, contained on the page you have linked to, criticising her statistical methods and challenging her declaration of interest, it's worth a read.

 

[Bronte]

This is worth reading.
http://www.independent.ie/national-...ice-that-could-put-lives-at-risk-3276226.html

I'm welll aware of that Tommy. All it showed me is that the women in these clinics are helping women in dire circumstances with unwanted pregnancies who don't know what to do and want an abortion for whatever reason. And the women in the clinics have the information to help them in their choice but are afraid of giving out the information as they are afraid of being prosecuted. The law is that information on abortion can be given out (constitutional amendment) but how far on that information can you go legally.

So in effect Irish society is forcing Irish women to covertly help other Irish women in need of help to procure the abortion pill (which is imported illegally into Ireland - I'm not sure how this is done, presumable via the post system to a PO Box) and then the women take it but they don't seek medical help. In other countries when you take this abortificent it is under medical supervision. And there is a reason for this, it can go wrong. It's rare but there can be complications.

Then the women who do take it, because it is illegal, they are being advised not to tell their doctors. I can only assume this is in case said doctor would report them to the authorities for having an abortion. This is the culture of care for women in Ireland that has built up over the last few decades. Prior to this courtsey of the Catholic Church women were forced into Magdelena laundries and their babies adopted. With great stigma and shame attached also courtesy of the caring Catholic Church. Now in a more enlightened era we instead allow 4000 women a day to go to the UK and the number who go to the UK and don't declare an Irish address I don't know, nor are their numbers on those that go to other countries nor is there a number on those who take the abortion pill.

In addition to the women who take the abortion pill, it seems the clinics are advising women who have gone to the UK to have an abortion to also pretend they never had an abortion. This is absolute insane. There can, rarely, be complications of abortion, as there are complications of any pregnancy, but is is absolutely crazy that women cannot be truthful with their doctors. This is the reality of the lives of the 100,000 women who have had abortions in the last decades.

But we'll continue on and export the problem and those that are anti abortion can be glad that we don't do abortion in Ireland. We'll vote for women to travel, we'll vote for them to be allowed information but no we won't allow them to do in in their own country.

No doubt we'll all be pre imminent professional experts on suicide in pregnancy over the coming months. That's what's really important. That we discuss that morning noon and night.

 

[Bronte]

I'm sure you have a link for this. In any case, Truthseeker has provided opposing references, which, for me, is clear proof that legislating for suicide is madness....not only is determining whether a woman is suicidal or not a subjective matter, and open to abuse, we now have conflicting evidence on whether unplanned pregnancies or abortions are linked to suicide. This is a major can of worms.

I mostly agree with you, but there are cases of women who are suicidal when pregnant who would kill themselves if they don't have an abortion. But I imagine statistically it's a very low number and this low statistic should be legislated for.

The problem is if it's legislated for will Irish women who want abortions all start to lie. And will we continue the hypocracy and allow them to have abortion under these grounds as we do now in relation to the UK or will we grow up and decide that we need to actually decide what to do about abortion.

 

[Bronte]

A minority of men and women will lie to get what they want. I don’t think anyone thinks anything other than a tiny proportion of women would do what you suggest. That’s not the point though; laws have to take such scenarios into account.

Well maybe it is the point. If you believe that a minority/majority of women will lie, are we as a society giving them no choice but to lie?

In any case the reality I would forsee if they bring in suicide as grounds for abortion, is that nothing will really change, because what sane women would go though a system of being assessed by two psychatrists (maybe Patrica Casey who never thinks a women would want an abortion as a 'cure' for suicide) when you'd save yourself all the stress of that by going to the UK. Abortion is a very difficult decision for a woman so I don't see any Irish women who has the means avoiding the risk of judgement under an Irish suicide legislation. That then leaves the genuinely suicidal behind, or the women without means.

(Incidentally you called me sexist the other day and I was really hurt by that, I've gone back over what I wrote but maybe I am sexist or ignorant because I fail to see where I said something sexist)

 

[Firefly]

The problem is if it's legislated for will Irish women who want abortions all start to lie. And will we continue the hypocracy and allow them to have abortion under these grounds as we do now in relation to the UK or will we grow up and decide that we need to actually decide what to do about abortion.

I agree and I think we should have a referendum on on-demand abortion and let the people, once and for all, decide.

 

[Purple]

Well maybe it is the point. If you believe that a minority/majority of women will lie, are we as a society giving them no choice but to lie?

They always have a choice. It may not be what they want or need but they still have a choice.

In any case the reality I would forsee if they bring in suicide as grounds for abortion, is that nothing will really change, because what sane women would go though a system of being assessed by two psychatrists (maybe Patrica Casey who never thinks a women would want an abortion as a 'cure' for suicide) when you'd save yourself all the stress of that by going to the UK. Abortion is a very difficult decision for a woman so I don't see any Irish women who has the means avoiding the risk of judgement under an Irish suicide legislation. That then leaves the genuinely suicidal behind, or the women without means.

I think that the suicide issue is a red herring. Due to the endorphins released during pregnancy pregnant women are the least likely group to commit suicide. I also thing a scenario where psychiatrists (and Mrs Casey in particular) are acting as de-facto judges who decide which women get abortions and which women don’t would be completely unacceptable.

(Incidentally you called me sexist the other day and I was really hurt by that, I've gone back over what I wrote but maybe I am sexist or ignorant because I fail to see where I said something sexist)

My apologies; I didn’t mean to offend or hurt you. I just find the whole premise that this is a women’s issue and men either don’t understand or shouldn’t have a say to be spurious.

For me the crux of the issue is this:
At some stage the woman loses her right to decide what happens to her on body; nobody here supports late term abortions.
At some stage a woman clearly has the right to decide what happens to her own body; nobody here (so far) is against the morning after pill.
The issue is when does the woman lose the right to decide, at what stage do we as a society say that the zygote or foetus becomes a person with their own rights and right to life. The idea that only women should have a voice in that discussion or a say in that decision is deeply sexist and offensive. Men are parents too and they love their children just as much as mothers do.

If it’s a choice between the life of the mother or the life of the unborn child then, for me anyway, it’s a no-brainer; the life of the mother should always come first. I just don’t see this is a woman’s rights issue. It’s about abortion, not feminism.

 

[dereko1969]

Gemma O'Doherty stands over her story and has since reinforced it in separate articles. Are you saying its untrue?

I have no idea if it's true or not. What I do know is that she didn't carry out the investigation, it was carried out by anti-choice activists and I don't believe that Gemma O'Doherty has seen the unedited footage, all she has reported on is footage provided to her by people with a vested interest.

So it would be the same if the IFPA provided video footage of meetings they had undercover with Youth Defence or SPUC, I wouldn't trust it.

The fact that the articles are written implying that the Indo actually did some proper journalism itself is very annoying too - the Indo exposed etc they didn't, they regurgitated information spoon fed to them.

 

[orka]

nobody here (so far) is against the morning after pill.

At least one person on this thread has stated they are against it.

 

[Firefly]

The idea that only women should have a voice in that discussion or a say in that decision is deeply sexist and offensive. Men are parents too and they love their children just as much as mothers do.

I think men should be involved in the discussion and any referdum, but it would be impossible to legislate for men to be party to the decision to have an abortion - the woman can simply say she is not sure who the father is and likewise the father might deny he is the father at all. The father might be on holidays even!

 

[T McGibney]

it would be impossible to legislate for men to be party to the decision to have an abortion - the woman can simply say she is not sure who the father is and likewise the father might deny he is the father at all. The father might be on holidays even!

If the extent of the father's rights isn't addressed by legislation, any resulting vacuum will inevitably lead to legal challenges such as [broken link removed].

 

[T McGibney]

I have no idea if it's true or not. What I do know is that she didn't carry out the investigation, it was carried out by anti-choice activists and I don't believe that Gemma O'Doherty has seen the unedited footage, all she has reported on is footage provided to her by people with a vested interest.

Have you a source for these assertions?

 

[Bronte]

My apologies; I didn’t mean to offend or hurt you. I just find the whole premise that this is a women’s issue and men either don’t understand or shouldn’t have a say to be spurious.

.

Thank you for that Purple, I do not recall every saying that men should have no say. I believe that both men and women should have a vote on abortion. If I were preganant and for whatever reason wanted an abortion I think it should be a matter for discussion between me and my husband (or long term partner). But I don't think for rape, incest and one night stand any man should have a say. In Saudi Arabia (might be the wrong country) women can only have an abortion with the consent of the husband, do you think that's the right approach? But take an ordinary couple how on earth in our society could you legislate to solve a dispute of such magnitude between a husband and wife.

 

[Bronte]

At least one person on this thread has stated they are against it.

I don't recall that?

 

[Bronte]

Have you a source for these assertions?

Surely what is more important is why are people like Youth Defence going around checking up on women's advice centres? Like what is that, we are going to be policed by them? They want to control our options and what next will they want to control?

 

[T McGibney]

Surely what is more important is why are people like Youth Defence going around checking up on women's advice centres? Like what is that, we are going to be policed by them? They want to control our options and what next will they want to control?

Why change the subject?

Why are Youth Defence important anyway? Their fanaticism gives me (and I'd imagine most people) the creeps.

 

[Firefly]

If the extent of the father's rights isn't addressed by legislation, any resulting vacuum will inevitably lead to legal challenges such as [broken link removed].

That's a good point. Tricky innit?