Tax is not money given to the government. It is a method of capital destruction to ensure equitable distribution of wealth. You do not have any moral right to your pre-tax income. That's why we throw tax dodgers in jail. Just because the market, in it's blind magnificence, throws you a wad of cash, that doesn't mean you deserve that income. You live in a society and you depend on that society. So the political system takes some of that money and distributes it to make everyone's life better.
Pre-tax incomes, of which the pension savings are a part, deserve no protection, they deserve no respect.
I haven't seen the likes of this for about 40 years! Since then, the Berlin Wall has come down, the Soviet Union has imploded and extreme Communism has been discredited. As a matter of interest, is there any current politician or party that reflects your views?Tax is not money given to the government. It is a method of capital destruction to ensure equitable distribution of wealth. You do not have any moral right to your pre-tax income. That's why we throw tax dodgers in jail. Just because the market, in it's blind magnificence, throws you a wad of cash, that doesn't mean you deserve that income. You live in a society and you depend on that society. So the political system takes some of that money and distributes it to make everyone's life better.
Pre-tax incomes, of which the pension savings are a part, deserve no protection, they deserve no respect.
I haven't seen the likes of this for about 40 years! Since then, the Berlin Wall has come down, the Soviet Union has imploded and extreme Communism has been discredited. As a matter of interest, is there any current politician or party that reflects your views?
This policy was implemented by the Irish govt after the financial crises. So that's less than 40 years ago.I haven't seen the likes of this for about 40 years! Since then, the Berlin Wall has come down, the Soviet Union has imploded and extreme Communism has been discredited. As a matter of interest, is there any current politician or party that reflects your views?
That's right, fair taxation and equitable redistribution of wealth leads to gulags.Gulags. Thats where every state with this bankrupt anti human morality ends up.
That's right, fair taxation and equitable redistribution of wealth leads to gulags.
You can't move for them in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, gulag as far as the eye can see.
Wow. Huge bait and switch there.
Have any of those governments declared that people have no moral right to their earnings?
And declare that pre-tax earnings deserve no protection or respect?
That is the philosophy I challenged.
And, in the context of this thread, has any Irish political party likely to be in government made such a declaration?
How do the governments noted above plan to fund their coronavirus costs? Have they raided pensions funds to fund their coronavirus expenditure?
You're changing the goalposts now that you're losing the argument! Originally you said: "Pre-tax incomes, of which the pension savings are a part, deserve no protection, they deserve no respect"I may have been blunt, but this is the law in every liberal, capitalist, socially advanced democracy. You have no right to your pre-tax earnings. If you did you could withold your tax and demand it is respected. I don't advise it though, because you will find yourself up before the beak in jig time.
Pension savings are pre-tax holdings and subject to tax laws. If the tax law changes then you pay up or go to jail.
You're changing the goalposts now that you're losing the argument! Originally you said: "Pre-tax incomes, of which the pension savings are a part, deserve no protection, they deserve no respect"
That's a completely different (and far more extreme) proposition than saying: "You have no right to your pre-tax earnings."
Let's be clear. We can accept there's no absolute right to keep all of your pre-tax earnings. (The most extreme of libertarians might disagree, but that's very much a minority view.) But in a democratic constitutional country there is a right not to subjected to arbitrary, discriminatory or unfairly administered taxation. That means that you have certain rights and protections in relation to your pre-tax earnings. The exact contours of those rights depend on the Constitution, the law and the interpretation of the Courts.
You seem to hanker after a society where those rights and protections are at the whim of some type of revolutionary people's commissar who can make up the rules as he goes along. All in the interest of "the people" of course!
Unless it's a water tax of course; that would be unfair.Maybe you can point me to the part of the Irish Constitution that protects your salary. Or indeed any law passed that gives you that protection.
Taxes are administered by law, whether they are fair is neither here nor there. Dail Eireann could pass a law tomorrow, increasing your tax liability by 10% or 20% or 30%. There is not a thing you could do about it, except pay up.
If you want to start a grassroots political campaign to overturn any proposal to levy a small tax against rich pensioners, go ahead.Unless it's a water tax of course; that would be unfair.
Who was talking about fair and equitable redistribution of wealth? I'm all for that but we can't afford to cut taxes on rich people.That's right, fair taxation and equitable redistribution of wealth leads to gulags.
Are you suggesting that Norway, Sweden and Denmark have fairer taxation systems? If so I agree completely; they have much higher rates of income tax on low and middle income earners and a much broader tax base which includes things like water charges and property tax.You can't move for them in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, gulag as far as the eye can see.
I'm all in favour of taxing rich pensioners. I'd get rid of their medical cards, free travel and other such perks as well as getting them to pay the same rates of income tax and social insurance that those under 65 pay. I'd also have left the retirement age at 68, while increasing the retirement age for all State employees to 68. I'm a bit of a socialist though, so I don't like to see rich old people exploiting vulnerable young people.If you want to start a grassroots political campaign to overturn any proposal to levy a small tax against rich pensioners, go ahead.
That's democracy, and it's open to all.
I'm all in favour of taxing rich pensioners. I'd get rid of their medical cards, free travel and other such perks as well as getting them to pay the same rates of income tax and social insurance that those under 65 pay. I'd also have left the retirement age at 68, while increasing the retirement age for all State employees to 68. I'm a bit of a socialist though, so I don't like to see rich old people exploiting vulnerable young people.
I can't see it happen though; old people are too myopic and selfish and have a boundless sense of entitlement.
The middle classes (middle income households) in this country contribute very little in comparison to their Scandinavian and Nordic counterparts.People don't mind taxation if it delivers a benefit to them, but it also has to be seen to deliver a benefit to them.
I'm all in favour of universality, as it gives everyone a stake in the social contract.
Here, quite a lot people don't get anything back, because of the means tested limits on most benefits. This builds, understandable, frustration and makes them easy meat for the right wingers, who blame the " others", less affluent people, migrants, those with mental health problesm, minority groups.
It's not a question of wealthy people getting freebies, it's a question of justice.
Equitable, socialist distribution of wealth works for all, including the middle classes who, currently, get very little in Ireland. Those Nordic countries extend the benefits of education, healthcare, childcare, public transport, public spaces to everyone. Yes the price is quite high in taxation, but it's more just and, generally, more successful in reducing inequality.
So, tax the pensioners, tax the pensions, tax the rich, tax the corporations, tax the multi-millionairs, but keep the free travel, keep the medical cards, introduce free child care, remove the college fees and create a national health service.
Why should the cleaner where I work tax taxes to fund the €300,000 it costs to put the child of a Hospital Consultant through medical school
Now people on low incomes don't pay any tax and middle income households pay very little tax. The problem is that people think they are part of a squeezed middle but any squeezing going on certainly isn't from the very low taxes they pay.
Universality is fundamentally unfair.
Now people on low incomes don't pay any tax and middle income households pay very little tax.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?