Will the government raid people's pension funds again for COVID-19 and can anything be done to stop them?

I'm sorry. Stopping one's AVC for those particular years didn't stop a O.75% charge to the capital already invested viz the complete pension pot built up.
The effect of the levy was not a reduction of relief from 41% to 40.25% as expressed in your earlier post.
There was no relationship to ones income. If I earned zero income for those years, my pension was deducted 0.75% of the total sum.

Yeah absolutely. I mean you had your fund and when the tax was introduced you only had the option to contribute or not. The current fund was getting hit regardless.
 
Anyone who had a mortgage in the 1970s got it written off by inflation over the next 10-15 years as salaries inflated and the mortgage stayed the same.

Inflation does not hurt everyone equally - unfortunately, those who benefited from the inflation in the 1970s are now retired and inflation is the last thing they want
 
Anyone who had a mortgage in the 1970s got it written off by inflation over the next 10-15 years as salaries inflated and the mortgage stayed the same. Inflation does not hurt everyone equally - unfortunately, those who benefited from the inflation in the 1970s are now retired and inflation is the last thing they want

Incorrect. Bankers may be dumb but that aren't stupid. There is no such thing, in finance anyway, as a free lunch. Mortgage rates increased in line with inflation.

1975 11.25%
1976 12.5%
1977 13.95%
1978 14.15%
1979 14.15%
1980 14.15%
1981 16.25%
1982 16.25%

Inflation hurt everybody. According to the CSO, the % change in the CPI from Jan 1970 to Dec 1979 was 236.1%. So a basket of goods and services that cost €1,000 in Jan 1970 would have cost €3,361.06 in Dec 1979. https://www.cso.ie/en/interactivezone/visualisationtools/cpiinflationcalculator/, i.e. a CAGR of approx. 11%. Real (i.e. inflation adjusted nd converted to euro) earnings went from 301.67 in 1970 to 444.11 in 1980. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-hes/hes2015/aiw/, i.e. a CAGR of approx. 4%.

After unemployment, which went from 5.7% in 1973 to 16.3% in 1988, and ill health; inflation is the last thing any rational person wants.
 
Mortgages rates were increased - I remember buying our first house in 1976 and later that year our mortgage increased by quite a lot. However, we then got annual salary increases in line with inflation so that by late 80s, the mortgage loan was no longer over two times our salary but more or less equal. By the 2000s it was a fraction of our salary.

Inflation is a great bonus for anyone one with a large debt, as the real value of the debt diminishes over time as long as they are in a job were wages and salaries are increased in line with inflation.
 
Mortgages rates were increased - I remember buying our first house in 1976 and later that year our mortgage increased by quite a lot. However, we then got annual salary increases in line with inflation so that by late 80s, the mortgage loan was no longer over two times our salary but more or less equal. By the 2000s it was a fraction of our salary.

Inflation is a great bonus for anyone one with a large debt, as the real value of the debt diminishes over time as long as they are in a job were wages and salaries are increased in line with inflation.
Depends on what line of business you were in. With international competition companies don't have luxury of salary increases merited for a small domestic economy.
In the 70s irish companies trading internationally paying inflation busting wage increases went bust in their droves, hence the country remained an economic backwater, characterised by mass underemployment of its citizens and stagnation.

So for a small open economy very dependent on trading internationally, maintenance of your costs through minimum inflationary pressures is a must, not only a worry for older retired people who worked in the 1970s!!!!
 
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Inflation is a great bonus for anyone one with a large debt, as the real value of the debt diminishes over time as long as they are in a job were wages and salaries are increased in line with inflation.

This depends utterly on the nominal interest rate. Even if wages increase with inflation the real burden of the debt can increase if interest rates go sky-high.
 
Ok, So the answer is that the government can raid your pension for as much as they like and it is locked away from you, but they have full access.

And people are pointing out something along the lines of "If I take money from your bank account that you have saved, it doesnt matter, because you'll be saving more anyway in the future to make it up, so you wont notice".

If they raid pensions again, people will only remember that they did it now twice on the bounce. It doesnt matter how you justify what they are taking or if you consider a few thousand small or big. The problem is that your money is locked away from you and they can take it as they please.
Thats just not good, no matter how you cut it.

If people are seriously exercised by this, they can stop contributing to their pension scheme and put their money in a deposit account, or an equity savings account.
Of course, this will mean paying 20% or, more likely 40% tax on the income before they start saving it.
Pension schemes are controlled by legislation because they come with massive tax incentives and huge benefits for those wealthy enough to avail of them.
Stop whinging because a tiny percentage was recovered to deal with a national emergency.
 
If people are seriously exercised by this, they can stop contributing to their pension scheme and put their money in a deposit account, or an equity savings account.
Of course, this will mean paying 20% or, more likely 40% tax on the income before they start saving it.
Pension schemes are controlled by legislation because they come with massive tax incentives and huge benefits for those wealthy enough to avail of them.
Stop whinging because a tiny percentage was recovered to deal with a national emergency.

I presume using your logic that you will also tell people to stop whinging when the Government looks to recover a tiny percentage from social welfare payments or from low paid workers who can earn a significant amount of money tax free. It's a national emergency after all.
 
I presume using your logic that you will also tell people to stop whinging when the Government looks to recover a tiny percentage from social welfare payments or from low paid workers who can earn a significant amount of money tax free. It's a national emergency after all.

They did. Child Benefit was reduced, the Standard Bereavement benefit was removed, the Christmas bonus was removed, a substantial number of other benefits for low paid workers were removed or reduced. In total, Lenihan reduced the Social Welfare budget by 4.1% in his emergency budget, substantially more than he took from much wealthier pension savers. Public Sector pay was cut by 20% or more, including low paid workers. The USC was levied on all income, including those on minimum wage.
 
I presume using your logic that you will also tell people to stop whinging when the Government looks to recover a tiny percentage from social welfare payments or from low paid workers who can earn a significant amount of money tax free. It's a national emergency after all.
So your argument is that those who don’t earn enough to pay tax are the equivalent to those who earn enough that they are comfortable to defer that income until retirement? They both don’t pay tax so should be treated the same?

Everyone pays DIRT on savings. Unless your >65
 
They did. Child Benefit was reduced, the Standard Bereavement benefit was removed, the Christmas bonus was removed, a substantial number of other benefits for low paid workers were removed or reduced. In total, Lenihan reduced the Social Welfare budget by 4.1% in his emergency budget, substantially more than he took from much wealthier pension savers. Public Sector pay was cut by 20% or more, including low paid workers. The USC was levied on all income, including those on minimum wage.

And nobody whinged. Yep, I remember how everyone just accepted it was for the common good.
 
So your argument is that those who don’t earn enough to pay tax are the equivalent to those who earn enough that they are comfortable to defer that income until retirement? They both don’t pay tax so should be treated the same?

Everyone pays DIRT on savings. Unless your >65

Everyone earns enough to pay tax. Even if it is 0.2%. Like almost every other Country. We just choose not to tax them. Which is fine but don't expect people who work hard and contribute into a pension to just sit back and watch as the Government decide to dip their fingers into it. And the excuse? Well you get tax relief.We get tax relief to encourage us to save a pension because they keep telling us we have a pension crisis. If the Government want to take pension money, let them change the tax reliefs. They have talked about it for long enough. They cant even raise the pension age though because apparently if is unfair. Thinking they can just help themselves to private pensions or savings whenever they want is the type of thinking that despot economies would have. It goes back to this SF belief that anyone who earns over 60k is a millionaire.
 
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Everyone earns enough to pay tax. Even if it is 0.2%. Like almost every other Country. We just choose not to tax them. Which is fine but don't expect people who work hard and contribute into a pension to just sit back and watch as the Government decide to dip their fingers into it. And the excuse? Well you get tax relief.We get tax relief to encourage us to save a pension because they keep telling us we have a pension crisis. If the Government want to take pension money, let them change the tax reliefs. They have talked about it for long enough. They cant even raise the pension age though because apparently if is unfair. Thinking they can just help themselves to private pensions or savings whenever they want is the type of thinking that despot economies would have. It goes back to this SF belief that anyone who earns over 60k is a millionaire.

Everyone does pay tax. Because of VAT and other consumption taxes, the poorest pay much more tax, as a percentage of their income, than the richest. And they can't avoid it, they have to buy food, or heating, or clothes, or transport. People who can save money or invest it in pensions, can avoid this tax, but people who need to spend their entire income to make ends meet, are punished to pay for the privileges of the wealthy.
 
Everyone does pay tax. Because of VAT and other consumption taxes, the poorest pay much more tax, as a percentage of their income, than the richest. And they can't avoid it, they have to buy food, or heating, or clothes, or transport. People who can save money or invest it in pensions, can avoid this tax, but people who need to spend their entire income to make ends meet, are punished to pay for the privileges of the wealthy.

You'll have to show us some figures there on net transfer of taxes and social supports to justify any of the above, they don't actually pay much more tax, or much tax at all, and what tax they do pay is drowned out by the levels of social supports.

You haven't accounted for a lot of things, such as, there's no VAT on food, free travel passes, heating allowances etc etc

Or that people such as PAYE workers are paying income tax on the earnings as they go about accumulating savings and pensions.
And what happens when your so-called rich (is everyone with savings or pensions rich?) come to the time to spend those savings or pension annuities?
How do they avoid consumption taxes then, I'd like to know?
 
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Everyone does pay tax. Because of VAT and other consumption taxes, the poorest pay much more tax, as a percentage of their income, than the richest.
Bit of a fallacy there. It's a line often trotted out by the "poverati" advocates but stop and think a moment.

Suppose I earn €100. And the government takes, say, 40% in direct taxes. So I'm left with €60. I spend it and another €10 goes in VAT. That's a tax rate of 50% in total. The government takes 50% of the money I earn.

Now suppose I get a welfare payment of €100. I spend it and the government gets about €15 back in VAT. That's NOT an effective tax rate of 15% because I was given the entire sum of money free gratis in the first place. Even post VAT I've still got a net €85 from the government. That's actually a NEGATIVE tax rate. The government is paying me, not vice versa!

You can take the thought experiment a bit further. Suppose the Government instead gives me €86 and I only pay €1 in VAT. Still a net transfer of €85 to me but the "tax rate" now shrinks to about 1%. Or suppose the government gives me €170 and takes back €85 in VAT. The "tax rate" now rises to 50% but I'm still getting a net transfer of €85. This just shows that it's nonsensical to calculate a tax rate in this manner.

The only way to do it consistently is to calculate your gross income BEFORE transfer payments and AFTER transfer payments. If the after figure exceeds the before figure you are not a net taxpayer - you are a net tax recipient.
 
Bit of a fallacy there. It's a line often trotted out by the "poverati" advocates but stop and think a moment.

Suppose I earn €100. And the government takes, say, 40% in direct taxes. So I'm left with €60. I spend it and another €10 goes in VAT. That's a tax rate of 50% in total. The government takes 50% of the money I earn.

Now suppose I get a welfare payment of €100. I spend it and the government gets about €15 back in VAT. That's NOT an effective tax rate of 15% because I was given the entire sum of money free gratis in the first place. Even post VAT I've still got a net €85 from the government. That's actually a NEGATIVE tax rate. The government is paying me, not vice versa!

You can take the thought experiment a bit further. Suppose the Government instead gives me €86 and I only pay €1 in VAT. Still a net transfer of €85 to me but the "tax rate" now shrinks to about 1%. Or suppose the government gives me €170 and takes back €85 in VAT. The "tax rate" now rises to 50% but I'm still getting a net transfer of €85. This just shows that it's nonsensical to calculate a tax rate in this manner.

The only way to do it consistently is to calculate your gross income BEFORE transfer payments and AFTER transfer payments. If the after figure exceeds the before figure you are not a net taxpayer - you are a net tax recipient.

I think you misunderstand income and tax. This idea that there is a wealth creating group and a wealth devouring group is typical of the right wing nonsence that pervades this debate.

If unemployed people, or disabled people, or people with mental health problems, or the rest of the "poverati", as you called them, got nothing, you would soon be complaining and so would thousands of wealthy people who depend on their expenditure. Go to countries where large swathes of people are left to fend for themselves. What they do is exactly that, they fight for their bit of the pie and if they can't get it through an equitable method of income redistribution, they will take it where they can.
So the payments are not gifts but efforts to manage the income created in the country and fairly distribute it, at least to ensure people don't end up starving on the streets. The incomes that people receive from Social welfare payments, many of which are supplements to insufficent wages, are incomes, and they VAT spend is tax.
 
I think you misunderstand income and tax. This idea that there is a wealth creating group and a wealth devouring group is typical of the right wing nonsence that pervades this debate.
I don't misunderstand it. Tax is money a taxpayer gives the Government. Well, more correctly I suppose, it's money the Government takes from the taxpayer. It's not like there's much choice in the matter! But, essentially, it's a transfer FROM the taxpayer TO the government. Not the other way around.

When the net transfer is FROM government TO the recipient, it's farcical to call it a tax. Unless you want to label it as a sort of "negative" tax.

If unemployed people, or disabled people, or people with mental health problems, or the rest of the "poverati", as you called them, got nothing, you would soon be complaining and so would thousands of wealthy people who depend on their expenditure.
The expression "poverati" refers to the cohort of NGOs and "Social Justice" outfits, usually funded by the taxpayer, who've made a very nice career indeed out of advocating higher taxes and greater government spending.

Now, I don't think anyone is saying welfare recipients should get nothing, but there is a reasonable case to be made that our rates are a bit too generous and too easy to qualify for.

So the payments are not gifts but efforts to manage the income created in the country and fairly distribute it, at least to ensure people don't end up starving on the streets. The incomes that people receive from Social welfare payments, many of which are supplements to insufficent wages, are incomes, and they VAT spend is tax.
I could accept it is income if it's earned through paying into the social insurance system. But otherwise it's a gift from the taxpayer, via the government, even if it is a necessary gift to ensure a basic (actually fairly generous) standard of life.
 
I don't misunderstand it. Tax is money a taxpayer gives the Government. Well, more correctly I suppose, it's money the Government takes from the taxpayer. It's not like there's much choice in the matter! But, essentially, it's a transfer FROM the taxpayer TO the government. Not the other way around.

When the net transfer is FROM government TO the recipient, it's farcical to call it a tax. Unless you want to label it as a sort of "negative" tax.


The expression "poverati" refers to the cohort of NGOs and "Social Justice" outfits, usually funded by the taxpayer, who've made a very nice career indeed out of advocating higher taxes and greater government spending.

Now, I don't think anyone is saying welfare recipients should get nothing, but there is a reasonable case to be made that our rates are a bit too generous and too easy to qualify for.


I could accept it is income if it's earned through paying into the social insurance system. But otherwise it's a gift from the taxpayer, via the government, even if it is a necessary gift to ensure a basic (actually fairly generous) standard of life.

Tax is not money given to the government. It is a method of capital destruction to ensure equitable distribution of wealth. You do not have any moral right to your pre-tax income. That's why we throw tax dodgers in jail. Just because the market, in it's blind magnificence, throws you a wad of cash, that doesn't mean you deserve that income. You live in a society and you depend on that society. So the political system takes some of that money and distributes it to make everyone's life better.
Pre-tax incomes, of which the pension savings are a part, deserve no protection, they deserve no respect.
 
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