Why there is so little house building in Ireland

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Rainyday

If there are not enough units to go around, some people will be homeless.

If new regulations take 3,000 (?) units out, then there will be homelessness.

I don't think that Focus Ireland were scaremongering.

Brendan

 

[RainyDay]

Hi Rainyday

If there are not enough units to go around, some people will be homeless.

If new regulations take 3,000 (?) units out, then there will be homelessness.

I don't think that Focus Ireland were scaremongering.

Brendan

I suppose the question would be whether 3,000 have been taken out, or whether the new regulation, like many others is being generally ignored, or phased in. I'm just surprised that in all the recent publicity about homelessness, I haven't seen one case in the press that related to the bedsit policy.

And indeed, because of the interconnection, the 3,000 bedsits might turn into 600 family homes, which adds capacity to that side of the market, which reduces demand over there.

 

[dub_nerd]

I'm just surprised that in all the recent publicity about homelessness, I haven't seen one case in the press that related to the bedsit policy.

The press like to run headlines about children forced to sleep in cars. A single middle aged man losing his bedsit doesn't sell papers.

And indeed, because of the interconnection, the 3,000 bedsits might turn into 600 family homes, which adds capacity to that side of the market, which reduces demand over there.

But those two markets are probably completely separate so there is no replacement effect.

 

[Bronte]

I'm just surprised that in all the recent publicity about homelessness, I haven't seen one case in the press that related to the bedsit policy.

And indeed, because of the interconnection, the 3,000 bedsits might turn into 600 family homes, which adds capacity to that side of the market, which reduces demand over there.

Well I'm not even there and I heard a lady in the last two weeks who was actually living in her house and had most of it in bedsits. She was concerned about her tenants who she looked after it seemed to me, but they now had to leave because of the new regulations. She was very concerned about them.

The costs of converting as far as I can make out make no sense and these type of properties are not suitable to turn into family homes.

 

[Purple]

What do you mean by this?

Tax is payable on rent (turnover) less allowable deductions. While those deductions don't include all of the interest on borrowings, it does include 75% of it.

That's what I mean. Interest on borrowings is a cost. No other business in the country pays tax on a cost, they pay tax on the profit. Borrowings could be 90% of the cost of the property. Having to pay tax on 25% of the cost of those borrowings could easily wipe out any profit. Therefore the cost must be passes on to the tenant.

 

[Bronte]

I suppose the question would be whether 3,000 have been taken out,

The demography of the loss of the bedsits would in my opinion be mostly single men (I cannot back this up) but from what I've seen and read of bedsits. They are not all grotty, but severly grotty ones that I did see were for the type of men that would hardly be socially fit for a hostal. So to me they serve a housing need. And the men were safer and happier in that type of environment.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...omelessness-and-housing-sector-grim-1.1844116

 

[Purple]

The demography of the loss of the bedsits would in my opinion be mostly single men (I cannot back this up) but from what I've seen and read of bedsits. They are not all grotty, but severly grotty ones that I did see were for the type of men that would hardly be socially fit for a hostal. So to me they serve a housing need. And the men were safer and happier in that type of environment.

I think that's a very important point. Legislating based on how things should be is dangerous when so many can fall into the gulf between what should be and what is.
Proper regulation and proper enforcement was the solution to grotty bedsits.
Between the disaster that is care in the community and the closure of bedsits many elderly men with minor to severe mental health issues who find it hard to cope on their own have been left with little or no support and shelter.

 

[Bronte]

Proper regulation and proper enforcement was the solution to grotty bedsits.
.

Totally agree with this, they could have increased the standards, made it tax deductable, and now instead they have created an even bigger problem, that will cost a lot more but also has a totally socially negative outcome.

Speaking of regulation, I don't believe there is any real regulation, the authorities don't want to know. It just causes them headaches.

As stated on here before on Priory Hall before the thread was closed down. There are a lot more Priory Halls, but now the authorities are investigating all properties they know to be compliant or near compliant and staying away from everything else, and they know which ones they are, but you won't find that on an paper trail.

It's the same issue with VAT and being late, if you're complaint but are late a week they come down on you like a ton of bricks for their statistics, but if you're way behind, they don't bother you as you are too troublesome.

 

[RainyDay]

As stated on here before on Priory Hall before the thread was closed down. There are a lot more Priory Halls, but now the authorities are investigating all properties they know to be compliant or near compliant and staying away from everything else, and they know which ones they are, but you won't find that on an paper trail.

It's the same issue with VAT and being late, if you're complaint but are late a week they come down on you like a ton of bricks for their statistics, but if you're way behind, they don't bother you are you are too troublesome.

These are scurrilous allegations, and you really should stand them up, or withdraw them. The Revenue lists are full of people who were 'way behind'. Did Revenue not 'bother with them'?

In relation to building control, where are these non-compliant properties that are not being inspected? A few examples would be great.

The demography of the loss of the bedsits would in my opinion be mostly single men (I cannot back this up) but from what I've seen and read of bedsits. They are not all grotty, but severly grotty ones that I did see were for the type of men that would hardly be socially fit for a hostal. So to me they serve a housing need. And the men were safer and happier in that type of environment.
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Safer and happier than what? Safer and happier than in a half-decent 1-bed apartment with its own bathroom and separate bedroom?

The costs of converting as far as I can make out make no sense and these type of properties are not suitable to turn into family homes.

I've heard of a number of cases of these properties being restored into family homes, and the level of work involved isn't hugely different with the standard 'restoration' work that seems to happen each time one of these houses changes hands.

The press like to run headlines about children forced to sleep in cars. A single middle aged man losing his bedsit doesn't sell papers.

Yes, I'm sure there is a bit of that going on, but can't you see the press getting all over the story of the elderly widow/widower being dumped out on the street, if that was happening?

But those two markets are probably completely separate so there is no replacement effect.

No two markets in housing are completely separate. There is definitely an interconnection.

 

[T McGibney]

These are scurrilous allegations, and you really should stand them up, or withdraw them. The Revenue lists are full of people who were 'way behind'. Did Revenue not 'bother with them'?

Not scurrilous but 100% true, as anyone working in the tax compliance industry will readily confirm to you if you ask them.

The Revenue lists are lists of defaulters, ie those who file incorrect returns, or under-declare or mis-declare income. They do not refer to those who pay late.

 

[T McGibney]

Yes, I'm sure there is a bit of that going on, but can't you see the press getting all over the story of the elderly widow/widower being dumped out on the street, if that was happening?

Maybe so for a middle-class widow/widower who suddenly falls on poor times, but not for the elderly bachelor who loses their home, or who lives in squalor. That sort of hard luck story doesn't shift too many papers.

 

[RainyDay]

The Revenue lists are lists of defaulters, ie those who file incorrect returns, or under-declare or mis-declare income. They do not refer to those who pay late.

The Revenue lists do refer to those who are so far way behind that they fail to file returns, right?

 

[T McGibney]

The Revenue lists do refer to those who are so far way behind that they fail to file returns, right?

No they don't. There are two sets of lists published each quarter - the big one is the tax defaulters list, ie the list of settlements.

The second one is the list of individuals and companies who have been prosecuted successfully in the courts for failure to file returns. These are only a tiny subset of late filers and generally involve cases several years behind - for example cases this year would typically refer to income tax returns for 2009, 2010 or maybe even earlier years. Even in hardcore late cases it is normally possible for a taxpayer to avoid court by filing at the last minute.

 

[Bronte]

These are scurrilous allegations, and you really should stand them up, or withdraw them.

In relation to building control, where are these non-compliant properties that are not being inspected? A few examples would be great.

Safer and happier than what? Safer and happier than in a half-decent 1-bed apartment with its own bathroom and separate bedroom?

I've heard of a number of cases of these properties being restored into family homes, and the level of work involved isn't hugely different with the standard 'restoration' work that seems to happen each time one of these houses changes hands.
.

Goodness me, scurrilious indeed. Do you think that Dublin corporation keep a list of the non compliant properties, or do you think they by logical deduction know which ones there are and avoid them but not write them on an list. Anyone working in the building industry would have a fair idea of the good and bad builders, that would be the engineers, the brickies, the plasters and also the council workers.

Do you think Johnnie aged 50, separated from his wife and with a slight drink problem living in central Dublin, in a warm, old fashioned bedsit, where the only person he see regularly is his landlord, but maybe other similar chaps, would prefer that or living out in the sticks in a lovely one bed apartment (where are they by the way) that he cannot manage and is even more lonely and cut off. And how do you propose that Johnnie pays for the one bed?

Convering bedsits into a house makes sense if you are going to live in that house as a family home and the expenditure is justified. But converting it from 9 bedsits into 4 flats is expensive as you cannot deduct the renovation costs as far as I know. They used to have a scheme that encouraged renovation, the countrywide something or other. I availed of it myself and I know others who used it too.

 

[Purple]

Bronte, you are not conforming to the standard line that all landlords are evil predators who are exploiting the working poor and that all-encompassing group, constituting 90% of the population; "The Most Vulnerable in Society" (TMVS for short).
Stop letting the truth get in the way of left-wing social engineering.

 

[RainyDay]

No they don't. There are two sets of lists published each quarter - the big one is the tax defaulters list, ie the list of settlements.

The second one is the list of individuals and companies who have been prosecuted successfully in the courts for failure to file returns.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by what appear to be contradictory statements above. So just to be clear, the second list does include people who have failed to file tax returns, right?

Goodness me, scurrilious indeed. Do you think that Dublin corporation keep a list of the non compliant properties, or do you think they by logical deduction know which ones there are and avoid them but not write them on an list. Anyone working in the building industry would have a fair idea of the good and bad builders, that would be the engineers, the brickies, the plasters and also the council workers.

Again, I'm a bit confused. Is this alleged avoidance of dangerous properties something that you have actually seen happening, or is it your 'logical deduction' that it must be happening?

Do you think Johnnie aged 50, separated from his wife and with a slight drink problem living in central Dublin, in a warm, old fashioned bedsit, where the only person he see regularly is his landlord, but maybe other similar chaps, would prefer that or living out in the sticks in a lovely one bed apartment (where are they by the way) that he cannot manage and is even more lonely and cut off. And how do you propose that Johnnie pays for the one bed?

They are all over Dublin, if you have a look on Daft - some modern apartments, some 1-bed flats in houses, city centre, Rathmines, Finglas, take your pick. I'm not sure if this search URL will work for you, but give it a shot.
http://www.daft.ie/dublin-city/houses-to-rent/?s[mxp]=900&s[mnb]=1&s[mxb]=1

And he'll pay the rent the same way as many other people pay their rent, through rent supplement or the new HAP. It's a far from perfect system, but it is the system.

Convering bedsits into a house makes sense if you are going to live in that house as a family home and the expenditure is justified. But converting it from 9 bedsits into 4 flats is expensive as you cannot deduct the renovation costs as far as I know. They used to have a scheme that encouraged renovation, the countrywide something or other. I availed of it myself and I know others who used it too.

Yes, the conversions that I've come across were converting it back to a family home.

 

[110quests]

Provincial /rural towns also have accommodation problems. Estates with 3/4 bedrooms were built with families in mind. A very limited number of 1/2 bed units were included. There are apartments over retail and a few purpose built apartment blocks.

For the single first time employee on low starting wage the above are mostly unaffordable . This group is finding that renting a room in a private house is the only way . They don't consider themselves "the vulnerable" , but know that many suns will set before they stretch to the luxury of their own one bed apartment. Question is : is their wage too meagre or the rents too high .

600 650 700e are the prices in this town for 1/2 bed acc. There are separated fathers, single employed guys and gals confronted with these options. A room costs @250e in private house often sharing bathroom, kitchen with owner. Not ideal but there is no choice.

If the cost of building is as expensive as stated in this thread , there is no hope that affordable blocks of apartments will be built soon to cater for above categories.

 

[T McGibney]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by what appear to be contradictory statements above. So just to be clear, the second list does include people who have failed to file tax returns, right?

You'd perhaps be less confused if you read my entire comment rather than selectively concentrating on isolated parts to suit your own debating position.

 

[Firefly]

They are all over Dublin, if you have a look on Daft - some modern apartments, some 1-bed flats in houses, city centre, Rathmines, Finglas, take your pick. I'm not sure if this search URL will work for you, but give it a shot.
http://www.daft.ie/dublin-city/houses-to-rent/?s[mxp]=900&s[mnb]=1&s[mxb]=1

Hi RainyDay,

Asuming that "a half-decent 1-bed apartment with its own bathroom and separate bedroom" would be the next rung of the ladder up from a bedsit, I'm just curious to know what you think would happen to rent prices of these apartments once the bedsits were removed - would prices rise, fall or stay the same, all other things being equal?

Firefly.

 

[RainyDay]

You'd perhaps be less confused if you read my entire comment rather than selectively concentrating on isolated parts to suit your own debating position.

Nope, still confused, having re-read the full thing again, several times.

I said that people who don't file returns are in the Revenue lists. You said 'No, they're not' and went on to say that people who don't file returns are in the second Revenue list. It's this contradiction that is confusing me.

Hi RainyDay,

Asuming that "a half-decent 1-bed apartment with its own bathroom and separate bedroom" would be the next rung of the ladder up from a bedsit, I'm just curious to know what you think would happen to rent prices of these apartments once the bedsits were removed - would prices rise, fall or stay the same, all other things being equal?

Firefly.

Would you like me to polish and varnish the stick for you to beat me with as well? Come on, it's a vague hypothetical, as 'all other things' are never equal. Is the number of bedsits significant across the whole market? I don't know really - but I know that sometimes, to improve standards, you have to take a stand and do it.