Why do we still have "The Angelus" on RTE?

ubiquitous said:
You're contradicting yourself by saying on one hand that the church "controls the masses through fear" and on the other by admitting that they actually don't do that (but they would love to, if they could afford it). Not very convincing
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The church is not the only influence on peoples lives, people also behave according to cultural influences. The churches position is to control the masses by fear. Culture and society influences (can) go against that, the best compromise for the church is to allow some laxity - otherwise they would lose membership - I dont see any contradiction? They control the members they DO have, and rely on indoctrination from being born into the faith to gain more members.

ubiquitous said:
The vast majority of catholics do not believe on this "punishment coming on the day of reckoning" rubbish. You will get a few loonies in every bandwagon. This not mean that everyone is a loony.
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Why not? How is it rubbish (to a catholic) if the church says it is so?
I dont understand this pick and mix stance - youre either a catholic or you arent?

ubiquitous said:
The Catholic Church does not forbid homosexuality.
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from:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp

"Every human being is called to receive a gift of divine sonship, to become a child of God by grace. However, to receive this gift, we must reject sin, including homosexual behavior—that is, acts intended to arouse or stimulate a sexual response regarding a person of the same sex. The Catholic Church teaches that such acts are always violations of divine and natural law."

ubiquitous said:
I would be interested if you can quote me a rule of the Catholic Church that states that sex should only be for procreation.
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from: [broken link removed]

"Since, therefore, the conjugal act is designed primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purposely sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious."
Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii


I was never an insider in Islam so am not qualified to speak on its teachings. I was, however, indoctrinated into Catholism at an age before I could speak and then when I became old enough to question it I realised I did not agree with any of it.
 

But dont the people who dont go to mass still have to pay the church for things like baptisms, weddings, funerals etc?


Absolutely excellent and well presented point. However, if you are willing to engage in a discussion about your belief system you must expect that you will feel offended because you wont like what you hear.
(if a fat person said 'lets discuss fatness' they would have to expect that they would not like what they heard).


I think the harm is in spreading a belief for which there is no proof. Like the Flat Earthers - even after the proof is in place that the earth is not flat they STILL persist in trying to spread a falsehood.
 
Why not? How is it rubbish (to a catholic) if the church says it is so?
I dont understand this pick and mix stance - youre either a catholic or you arent?
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Thats the point, you can believe in what you like and you should question things.


Where does it say that the churches position is to control by fear? is it in the annual report? They dont control members, for instance I am a Catholic but I dont consult the bible or seek guidance in my daily life, there is no influence or interference in my life.
 
Sorry, that does not explain the contradiction I highlighted. "Control through fear" and "allow some laxity" are mutually contradictory terms.
truthseeker said:
Why not? How is it rubbish (to a catholic) if the church says it is so?
I dont understand this pick and mix stance - youre either a catholic or you arent?
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Other posters have addresses this point much better than I can.

The article you quote does not refer to homosexuality, except in its headlines. The Church forbids homosexual acts. It does not condemn homosexuals, unlike some other religions and secular movements.
Piux XI died in 1939. You might as well be quoting Padraig Pearse as a source on modern Ireland. Are you beyond understanding that the the Catholic Church, and all movements of whatever ilk, evolve over time?
I was never an insider in Islam so am not qualified to speak on its teachings. I was, however, indoctrinated into Catholism at an age before I could speak and then when I became old enough to question it I realised I did not agree with any of it.
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So, one cannot criticise say, the Moonies, unless one has been a member of the Moonies?
 

I think it should be possible in civilised society for, say, cigarette smokers to engage with others in debate and discussions about lung cancer without being insulted for their habits.
 

But dont the people who dont go to mass still have to pay the church for things like baptisms, weddings, funerals etc?
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yes but if they expect to have ceremonys in such buildings they should expect that the buildings need to be run, so payment is not out of the ordinary and generally minimal.



Not sure if your first line is sarcastic but I'm taking it as a compliment, and to your reply - touché!

I think the harm is in spreading a belief for which there is no proof. Like the Flat Earthers - even after the proof is in place that the earth is not flat they STILL persist in trying to spread a falsehood
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I guess the belief system will remain until scientists can prove there is no God, but even then I think that people will still need a degree of faith or at least hold onto it.
 
MrMan said:
Not sure if your first line is sarcastic but I'm taking it as a compliment, and to your reply - touché!
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It was intended as a compliment and not as sarcasm. It was a valid point you made.

MrMan said:
I guess the belief system will remain until scientists can prove there is no God, but even then I think that people will still need a degree of faith or at least hold onto it.
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I agree - people will still hold onto it no matter what science says - which is harmful IMO.
 

It doesnt say it anywhere - that is my opinion of organised religion.
 
ubiquitous said:
Sorry, that does not explain the contradiction I highlighted. "Control through fear" and "allow some laxity" are mutually contradictory terms.
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Not at all - I never said it was a totalitarian movement.

ubiquitous said:
The article you quote does not refer to homosexuality, except in its headlines. The Church forbids homosexual acts. It does not condemn homosexuals, unlike some other religions and secular movements.
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If it forbids homosexual acts then how is it possible to be homosexual without going against the churches teachings?

ubiquitous said:
Piux XI died in 1939. You might as well be quoting Padraig Pearse as a source on modern Ireland. Are you beyond understanding that the the Catholic Church, and all movements of whatever ilk, evolve over time?
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You stated you would be interested if I could find you something that proved my point. I found something - you never placed conditions on what I found until you didnt like what I showed you.


ubiquitous said:
So, one cannot criticise say, the Moonies, unless one has been a member of the Moonies?
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One can. You asked about Islam, I told you I wasnt qualified to speak on its teachings - I am not. If I researched the subject Id speak on it. Ditto for Moonies. My broad view is that any organised religion that holds unprovable belief systems is wrong. But I cant comment on individual cases without more education on those cases.
 
MrMan, Re: influence/interference in my daily life, I would say the issue of pubs not opening on good friday and abortion are two examples.
 
truthseeker said:
Not at all - I never said it was a totalitarian movement.
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But you did say it "controlled through fear" (which is as good a definition of totalitarianism as I can imagine) but you then said it "allows some laxity", which as I said seems to be contradictory.
truthseeker said:
If it forbids homosexual acts then how is it possible to be homosexual without going against the churches teachings?
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This distinction has been addressed ad nauseam by many senior Church figures in recent times. You should find plenty of explanations on the web if you look.
truthseeker said:
You stated you would be interested if I could find you something that proved my point. I found something - you never placed conditions on what I found until you didnt like what I showed you.
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No, I just thought that the source you found was irrelevant and outdated.
truthseeker said:
One can. You asked about Islam, I told you I wasnt qualified to speak on its teachings - I am not. If I researched the subject Id speak on it. Ditto for Moonies.
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With respect, I think that sounds like a cop out. Have you no opinion whatsoever on, for example, female circumcision or honour killings?
 
Caveat said:
MrMan, Re: influence/interference in my daily life, I would say the issue of pubs not opening on good friday and abortion are two examples.
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How does abortion affect your daily life?

Why are you blaming the Church for pubs not opening on Good Friday in this day and age? E-mail your local TD and try and get the law changed. As someone who has worked in pubs, I think it is great idea. It was always one of the very few days that I knew I would have off.
 
ubiquitous said:
But you did say it "controlled through fear" (which is as good a definition of totalitarianism as I can imagine) but you then said it "allows some laxity", which as I said seems to be contradictory.
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If you dont understand the point Im making then I dont have a way to make it any clearer.

ubiquitous said:
This distinction has been addressed ad nauseam by many senior Church figures in recent times. You should find plenty of explanations on the web if you look.
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Great - could you post a link?

ubiquitous said:
No, I just thought that the source you found was irrelevant and outdated.
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There are more recent quotes available but its really the same story dressed in different clothing throughout time.

ubiquitous said:
With respect, I think that sounds like a cop out. Have you no opinion whatsoever on, for example, female circumcision or honour killings?
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Fine - you are entitled to your opinion. It seems you choose deliberately inflammatory subjects, I am against body modification in all forms for children and I believe killing another human being is morally wrong no matter what the reason - but these are things that I would disagree with no matter whether it was religion or culture behind it.
 
Caveat said:
May never have been a member of the catholic church?

May never have received any?

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IMHO, if you're inside the tent, you free to p*$$ out. If you're outside, trying to p*$$ in .. down with that sort of thing !
 
Sunny said:
How does abortion affect your daily life?
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How? Because I live in a country where the legal issues regarding abortion are as a result of the influence of the church.

Why are you blaming the Church for pubs not opening on Good Friday in this day and age?
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Because again, it is their influence that has resulted in this.
 
Caveat said:
MrMan, Re: influence/interference in my daily life, I would say the issue of pubs not opening on good friday and abortion are two examples.
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They don't interfere with my daily life but I understand your point.
 
Caveat said:
How? Because I live in a country where the legal issues regarding abortion are as a result of the influence of the church.



Because again, it is their influence that has resulted in this.
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I think you are giving too much credit to the power of the Church.

Anyway, are you just going to ignore the good things the Church does on a daily basis?

Can't believe I am actually defending the Catholic Church....
 
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