Key Post Why Bitcoin has value

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Leo

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ricing on amazon.co.uk is denominated in £GBP. If you were to whip out your AIB visa debit or credit card right now to buy something on that platform, a third party processor (visa) would have to convert your euro to £GBP to facilitate the transaction.
No, you do have the option to be directly charged in Euro, many vendors offer that option. Amazon use an internal conversion rate, and charge your credit or debit card in Euro. The card provider does not perform any conversion.
 

Firefly

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No, you do have the option to be directly charged in Euro, man y vendors offer that option. Amazon use an internal conversion rate, and charge your credit or debit card in Euro. The card provider does not perform any conversion.
Exactly.

@tecate, Unless Amazon offer the same thing for Bitcoin, you cannot buy anything on Amazon with Bitcoin and to say otherwise is misleading.
 

Leo

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What I realize Leo is that the MIT study that I cited is bang up to date whereas this paper that you tried to big up by suggesting it was 'industry reviewed' (NOT!) is outdated with a dataset that is outdated.
So you can't explain how you cane to the conclusion that low early transaction volumes significantly skewed the results?

That armor report you cited didn't provide any insight into the proportion of illicit transactions vs. legal transactions - none.
Of course it didn't, I never claimed it did. It was quoted purely in the (explicitly stated) context of bitcoin being the dominant crypto in cybercrime.

You dismissed a perfectly good means of purchasing that specific item (and 353 million others) via the Amazon platform.
How do you not get that the item is paid for with fiat? As the merchant, what method of payment are Amazon receiving for that item?

With that sort of irrational approach, I'm not going to spend my time going through individual online shops for your perusal. I proved the point - there's no need to take that further.
But you said you already identified multiple sources, how much time would it take to look at your internet history and find just one of them again?
 

tecate

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Rubbish. I've edited my post above. I am charged in Euro. Over to you. Show me where you can "pay in Bitcoin".
No, you do have the option to be directly charged in Euro, many vendors offer that option. Amazon use an internal conversion rate, and charge your credit or debit card in Euro. The card provider does not perform any conversion.
The items are priced in GBP so firstly there is a conversion. The conversion is a visa/mastercard/american express conversion. Amazon themselves are NOT carrying out that conversion. The only difference is that in this instance, Amazon have integrated the API from visa/mastercard/american express into their platform.

So the only difference with => this <= is that the conversion happens outside the platform - yet seamlessly overlaid over the payment page as you check out. BOTH involve a third party conversion carried out by a third party and NOT carried out by Amazon.

And once again - I'll bring it to the attention of both of you just how small you've gotten with this approach. The initial query and challenge from you Leo was to prove that Bitcoin could be used to buy stuff. That's proven. What you're going with here is semantics. It doesn't matter that Amazon have not integrated a third party Bitcoin payment API on their platform. There is little difference between that sitting on the platform or off the platform with that browser extension. Neither of you can say that if you hold Bitcoin, you won't be able to use it to pay for 353 million products on Amazon. Within the next few months, that functionality will be extended to Aliexpress (100 million products), Walmart, Ebay and others.
@tecate, Unless Amazon offer the same thing for Bitcoin, you cannot buy anything on Amazon with Bitcoin and to say otherwise is misleading.
Rubbish. There was never anything misleading in what I wrote. A currency conversion is carried out in each example. One has the API integrated (as the conversion is carried out by visa as a third party - NOT by amazon). The other has the currency conversion carried out via a browser extension that overlays on the payment page. The result is the very same. It's clutching at straws to claim otherwise.
So you can't explain how you cane to the conclusion that low early transaction volumes significantly skewed the results?
I've explained that the dataset is out of date yet the MIT research is bang up to date. Even taking the most recent data from your 'industry reviewed' (!!) study, its outdated. It's before the big surge in late 2017. Since that point, the bulk of the expansion into more professional circles has happened with Bitcoin. But ignore all that - as it wouldn't suit the narrative you're trying to contrive here.

Any word on proof as regards this 'industry reviewed' study or you just want to continue to make stuff up Leo?

Of course it didn't, I never claimed it did. It was quoted purely in the (explicitly stated) context of bitcoin being the dominant crypto in cybercrime.
Fine - then we'll throw it out then - as it has no relevance to that strand of the discussion (i.e. what proportion of transactions on the bitcoin network are illicit).
Meanwhile, 90% of illicit drugs continue to be bought with FIAT.

How do you not get that the item is paid for with fiat? As the merchant, what method of payment are Amazon receiving for that item?
How do you not get that seamless use of a converter - whether it be from one FIAT to another FIAT by a third party api on the amazon platform OR BTC to FIAT by a browser extension/third party that overlays on the amazon payment page - is no encumbrance?

But you said you already identified multiple sources, how much time would it take to look at your internet history and find just one of them again?
Why would I bother when you irrationally try to defy the reality - which is that 353 million products including the one that you challenged me to find - can be purchased with Bitcoin via the Amazon platform? I found you the best of sources - job done.
 

Firefly

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The items are priced in GBP so firstly there is a conversion. The conversion is a visa/mastercard/american express conversion. Amazon themselves are NOT carrying out that conversion.

It appears from the official Amazon page, you are charged directly in your local currency. Amazon performs the conversion. I cannot find any reference that the conversion is performed by visa/mastercard/american express. Can you please back that up with something official?

When you use Amazon Currency Converter, we'll charge your credit or debit card in your local currency.


The only difference is that in this instance, Amazon have integrated the API from visa/mastercard/american express into their platform.
Again, can you back this up???

So the only difference with => this <= is that the conversion happens outside the platform -
Exactly. Outside the platform. Not ON the platform. If it was ON the platform you could buy anything ON Amazon with Bitcoin. But you can't....
That's the point I am making.

And once again - I'll bring it to the attention of both of you just how small you've gotten with this approach. The initial query and challenge from you Leo was to prove that Bitcoin could be used to buy stuff. That's proven. What you're going with here is semantics. It doesn't matter that Amazon have not integrated a third party Bitcoin payment API on their platform. There is little difference between that sitting on the platform or off the platform with that browser extension. Neither of you can say that if you hold Bitcoin, you won't be able to use it to pay for 353 million products on Amazon.
I don't think it's small to refute a repeated, misleading suggestion that you can buy anything on the Amazon platform with Bitcoin when you can't.
 

tecate

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It appears from the official Amazon page, you are charged directly in your local currency. Amazon performs the conversion. I cannot find any reference that the conversion is performed by visa/mastercard/american express. Can you please back that up with something official?
When you use Amazon Currency Converter, we'll charge your credit or debit card in your local currency.
Again, can you back this up???
Here you go.
Exactly. Outside the platform. Not ON the platform. If it was ON the platform you could buy anything ON Amazon with Bitcoin. But you can't....
That's the point I am making.
Firstly, many posts ago at this stage, I confirmed that Amazon have not officially supported Bitcoin directly. However, you have seen the video demo for that browser extension. You have seen that it works *ON the amazon platform and *ON the amazon payment page with the conversion happening outside of the amazon platform.

*Ridiculous that we have to tease this out but to appease you, lets do that. ON in this instance means the browser extension facilitates the use of the conversion and third party processing whilst overlaid on the the platform and on the payments page whilst not being integrated within it and not being directly supported by the platform.

Now, I have a question for you.

As a bitcoin holder - who wants to buy something offered by Amazon, what earthly difference does this make to me? HOW am I disadvantaged in buying anything with Bitcoin *ON the Amazon platform using this browser extension/third party processor?

I don't think it's small to refute a repeated, misleading suggestion that you can buy anything on the Amazon platform with Bitcoin when you can't.
I most definitely do believe its beyond petty for two reasons;
1. There is nothing that you can point to that is inaccurate in anything I wrong on the subject in my posts above.
I clearly stated that Amazon as a company didn't officially support Bitcoin payments directly. From the get go, I provided the url link to the third party processor.
2. It was clear from the get go that the query / challenge was to prove that Bitcoin could be used to buy products (including the specific product Leo put forward). I did that - and its proven despite the both of you going down this pedantic cul de sac.
3. For the question I set out in bold above - it makes no earthly difference to a Bitcoin holder. If they're made aware of this option, they can buy whatever they want on the Amazon platform.
 
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Firefly

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Here you go.
Thanks for the link but I can't find a reference to an external API call to visa/mastercard/american express. Can you back this up?

By the way......I'm still waiting for that screenshot. I've shown you mine.....

Firstly, many posts ago at this stage, I confirmed that Amazon have not officially supported Bitcoin directly. However, you have seen the video demo for that browser extension. You have seen that it works *ON the amazon platform and *ON the amazon payment page with the conversion happening outside of the amazon platform.
It doesn't. Working ON the platform would mean that Amazon either does the conversion or initiates a conversion. Neither occurs. Your extension converts Bitcoin to real money which is then used to make the trasaction. Bitcoin never touches the Amazon platform and so cannot buy anything on Amazon.

*Ridiculous that we have to tease this out but to appease you, lets do that. ON in this instance means the browser extension facilitates the use of the conversion and third party processing whilst overlaid on the the platform and on the payments page whilst not being integrated within it and not being directly supported by the platform.
That's a completely absurd definition. ON the Amazon platform means Amazon are processing the currency conversion. The conversion by your Chrome extension in no way happens on Amazon's platform. Completely bogus.


Now, I have a question for you.

As a bitcoin holder - who wants to buy something offered by Amazon, what earthly difference does this make to me? HOW am I disadvantaged in buying anything with Bitcoin *ON the Amazon platform using this browser extension/third party processor?
As above, you are not buying anything ON the Amazon platform you are using FIAT.

But to answer your question, you are introducing an extra, unnecessary step in the procedure. You are potentially opening up a security hole in your browser. You will not be reimbursed by Amazon in Bitcoin in the event of returning a product, you are introducing currency fluctuation risks, and on and on. Let me counter with a question, why on earth would you go to all this trouble when you can just use, you know, real money????
 

Leo

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Thanks for the link but I can't find a reference to an external API call to visa/mastercard/american express. Can you back this up?
Won't be possible because that's not how DCC works for the most part. There are 3rd party providers that smaller merchants can use (Visa or MasterCard do not offer a DCC service as far as I'm aware) but larger merchants like Amazon host their own services and cash in handsomely in the process.
 

Leo

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As a bitcoin holder - who wants to buy something offered by Amazon, what earthly difference does this make to me? HOW am I disadvantaged in buying anything with Bitcoin *ON the Amazon platform using this browser extension/third party processor?
Using a 3rd party processor, you lose any ability to leverage the protections that come when you purchase using a debit or credit card.

You may also face difficulty exercising other consumer rights as you have no proof of payment, bar a bitcoin payment to an unregulated 3rd party payments service who are not regulated in Ireland or the EU.
 

Firefly

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Just throwing it out there.....could this Chrome extension be used to launder money? I sell something illegal on the Darkweb for Bitcoin. I then make a purchase from Amazon by first converting my Bitcoin to FIAT with said Chrome extension. The goods arrive and then I promptly return to Amazon. Amazon in turn refunds to my, presumably, stored back account with the currency used in the transaction, FIAT. I can then show where the funds in my back account came from. Am I missing something??
 

Leo

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Just throwing it out there.....could this Chrome extension be used to launder money?
The challenge there is like most vendors. Amazon will only process refunds to the payment source you used. This is required to combat money laundering and other methods of fraud.

So this protection means Moon is extremely unlikely to be used to facilitate money laundering via vendors like Amazon, it also means you may not get your money back if you do need to return an item or not receive it in the first place. Moon themselves make no reference to how returns or refunds are managed.
 

Firefly

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The challenge there is like most vendors. Amazon will only process refunds to the payment source you used. This is required to combat money laundering and other methods of fraud.

So this protection means Moon is extremely unlikely to be used to facilitate money laundering via vendors like Amazon, it also means you may not get your money back if you do need to return an item or not receive it in the first place. Moon themselves make no reference to how returns or refunds are managed.
Foiled again. I'll stick my day job!!
 

Leo

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Foiled again. I'll stick my day job!!
One alternative... Buy lots of bitcoin, head to the darkweb and rent botnet some capacity. Task that botnet to google BTC. Watch the price rise and then cash out. Of course, that would lead to some pretty serious penalties in a regulated market, but not so for bitcoin.
 

tecate

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Thanks for the link but I can't find a reference to an external API call to visa/mastercard/american express. Can you back this up?
I don't see it - but that's how it would work in most instances even for large platforms. Perhaps with Amazon being gi-normous they have their own processing. But it doesn't change the reality. The thrust of your point is that processing was carried out on and off platform. The off platform process (as per the video demo that I've linked to) is seamless. So what is your point? This all started out with a suggestion that I as a bitcoin holder cannot buy jack with Bitcoin. It's semantics if the processor is on or off platform - you can see that the process is straightforward. I can buy whatever I like on that platform with Bitcoin.
By the way......I'm still waiting for that screenshot. I've shown you mine.....
Waiting? If I want to post something, I will. There seems to be some sort of implicit entitlement in that statement. I'm under no duty or obligation to respond to stuff that's put across in that way.

Having said that, what is it you're looking for? You were provided with this -> A transaction *ON the Amazon platform where the buyer is paying with Bitcoin using that third party processor with a few clicks - all in 40 seconds.

That's as clear as night and day - unless you're diametrically opposed to the development of decentralised cryptocurrency - which you both (and a few others here) most definitely are.

It doesn't. Working ON the platform would mean that Amazon either does the conversion or initiates a conversion. Neither occurs. Your extension converts Bitcoin to real money which is then used to make the trasaction.
First of all, you mean a conversion from sound money (Bitcoin) to unsound money (FIAT). As regards a conversion taking place, sure - a conversion takes place. I never suggested otherwise. The same when you buy on amazon.co.uk - a conversion takes place.

Bitcoin never touches the Amazon platform and so cannot buy anything on Amazon.
That's incorrect. Now who's being misleading. That third party processor/browser extension right now has been developed with amazon in mind (with other platforms to be added). So you can buy whatever you like on Amazon - and it's seamless. You're the one that's being misleading.

That's a completely absurd definition. ON the Amazon platform means Amazon are processing the currency conversion. The conversion by your Chrome extension in no way happens on Amazon's platform. Completely bogus.
You're being completely disingenuous. Watch the video again. Do you open up a separate browser window? You don't. You're not IN the platform but your ON the platform and On the payments page ( :rolleyes: ).
I NEVER stated that the conversion happens within their platform - never.

As above, you are not buying anything ON the Amazon platform you are using FIAT.
As above yourself. The third party processor/browser extension converts on my behalf to FIAT milliseconds before payment.

You are introducing an extra, unnecessary step in the procedure.
Ha! Un-necessary steps? Re-watch the video demo and count up the additional mouse clicks required. Is it 2?

You are potentially opening up a security hole in your browser.
What security hole? Enlighten me.

You will not be reimbursed by Amazon in Bitcoin in the event of returning a product,
I will be reimbursed in full - and credited to the card associated with my Amazon account in that instance.

Let me counter with a question, why on earth would you go to all this trouble when you can just use, you know, real money????
To answer that I'll deal with your 'real money' nonsense.
You're hilarious with your 'real money'. This is the 'real money' that erodes every second it sits in your wallet through inflation? The 'real money' that you may never see again if a bank goes bust or the government decide to take it. The 'real money' that a couple of weeks ago (in the case of the euro) will open the printing presses to the tune €20 billion/month - further eroding peoples wealth. The 'real money' that last week (in the case of the dollar) the FED took to printing off in excess of the value of the entire crypto market cap in Q.E.. That real money.
It's 'unsound money' whereas 'bitcoin' is sound money - but believe whatever nonsense you want.

Aside from that, its unconfiscatable, immutable, borderless and runs on the worlds most secure network. People can custody it themselves. I can send it from my own wallet to whomever I choose - anywhere in the world. Other than that, it has designed in scarcity - unlike this 'unsound money' you keep babbling on about.

Bitcoin continues to slowly move up the rankings in terms of currencies by capitalisation.
 
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tecate

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One alternative... Buy lots of bitcoin, head to the darkweb and rent botnet some capacity. Task that botnet to google BTC. Watch the price rise and then cash out. Of course, that would lead to some pretty serious penalties in a regulated market, but not so for bitcoin.
Go do it then Leo if its so easy. But I understand your dilema completely - you missed it a couple of times...not an issue for most but some get embittered with that it seems. But double down - and get it wrong another couple of times. That's your prerogative all day long. :cool:

Any word on that proof of 'industry reviewed' research by the way?
 

tecate

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Using a 3rd party processor, you lose any ability to leverage the protections that come when you purchase using a debit or credit card.

You may also face difficulty exercising other consumer rights as you have no proof of payment, bar a bitcoin payment to an unregulated 3rd party payments service who are not regulated in Ireland or the EU.
That's completely incorrect. Perhaps you might want to gain an understanding of how this works before saying it doesn't work.

The third party processor is exactly that - a third party processor. They carry out that conversion miliseconds before the order is placed with Amazon. The buyer has all of the usual protections as they ordinarily would - like any other buyer.
 

Firefly

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Waiting? If I want to post something, I will. There seems to be some sort of implicit entitlement in that statement. I'm under no duty or obligation to respond to stuff that's put across in that way.
No need to get so touchy!

I asked you in post 150 to prove that you can purchase something on Amazon's platform with Bitcoin. ON their platform. This means that you see the "Pay in Bitcoin". You in post 153 said "The very same right back at you" (And you accuse me of implicit entitlement!) . "Purchasing on amazon.co.uk - please provide proof that Amazon accept euro." I provided this in post 158.

All I am asking is that you return the favour and provide a screenshot where you can "Pay in Bitcoin".

Otherwise, I repeat that I think it's misleading to say you can buy anything on the amazon platform with Bitcoin, without highlighting the need to firstly convert Bitcoin into real money via a 3rd party Chrome extension.

It's the same as me saying I can buy tickets to a GAA match with my stamps, but neglecting to point out that I just need to make a really quick visit to my favourite ticket tout enroute who has agreed to buy some stamps from me for cash. That's what's misleading.......if you can't see that at this stage, I'm done explaining it to you.

As regards a conversion taking place, sure - a conversion takes place. I never suggested otherwise. The same when you buy on amazon.co.uk - a conversion takes place.
This is the central point I am making though. With an accepted currency, the conversion takes place by Amazon, on their platform. Their IT systems are performing the conversion. With the browser extension, the conversion is not being performed on the Amazon platform. They have no knowledge or awareness of it. It doesn't happen ON their platform

What security hole? Enlighten me.
I'm not the one installing an extension on my browser so that'll be something for you to justify for yourself. May it's perfectly safe, but maybe not, hence the word potentially.

I will be reimbursed in full - and credited to the card associated with my Amazon account in that instance.
Ah right. That would be in unsound FIAT yeah? Brilliant that is!!!


To answer that I'll deal with your 'real money' nonsense.

You're hilarious with your 'real money'. This is the 'real money' that erodes every second it sits in your wallet through inflation? The 'real money' that you may never see again if a bank goes bust or the government decide to take it. The 'real money' that a couple of weeks ago (in the case of the euro) will open the printing presses to the tune €20 billion/month - further eroding peoples wealth. The 'real money' that last week (in the case of the dollar) the FED took to printing off in excess of the value of the entire crypto market cap in Q.E.. That real money.

It's 'unsound money' whereas 'bitcoin' is sound money - but believe whatever nonsense you want.
Looks like a rabbit hole, so thanks, but no thanks. I've had the experience before.
 

tecate

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I asked you in post 150 to prove that you can purchase something on Amazon's platform with Bitcoin. ON their platform. This means that you see the "Pay in Bitcoin". You in post 153 said "The very same right back at you" (And you accuse me of implicit entitlement!) . "Purchasing on amazon.co.uk - please provide proof that Amazon accept euro." I provided this in post 158.
All I am asking is that you return the favour and provide a screenshot where you can "Pay in Bitcoin".
There was full disclosure from start to finish with this and it was clear from the get go - that this solution implicated a third party processor. You can literally SEE the process in the demo video. There is no mystery. It was acknowledged that Amazon have not officially adopted Bitcoin as a direct payment method.
You object to the way things are phrased - I disagree. Using the browser extension, you can see for yourself what happens. I'm not going to explain it again.

Otherwise, I repeat that I think it's misleading to say you can buy anything on the amazon platform with Bitcoin, without highlighting the need to firstly convert Bitcoin into real money via a 3rd party Chrome extension.
As above. (and you mean 'sound money' (Bitcoin) into unsound money (FIAT). If you insist on going with this 'real money' nonsense, then I'm obliged to correct you.

It's the same as me saying I can buy tickets to a GAA match with my stamps, but neglecting to point out that I just need to make a really quick visit to my favourite ticket tout enroute who has agreed to buy some stamps from me for cash. That's what's misleading.......if you can't see that at this stage, I'm done explaining it to you.
Yes, those 2 extra mouse clicks are such a terror, you have to come up with this tripe (and I was done explaining it to you a long time ago).

This is the central point I am making though. With an accepted currency, the conversion takes place by Amazon, on their platform. Their IT systems are performing the conversion. With the browser extension, the conversion is not being performed on the Amazon platform. They have no knowledge or awareness of it. It doesn't happen ON their platform
It doesn't happen 'within' their platform. Anyone who has watched the demo video would realise why the distinction is made i.e. because the browser extension overlays the couple of options (those 2 clicks that you find to be such a major hassle) ON their platform and ON their payment page. That its a third party processor and that Amazon are oblivious was never claimed and never in question. That's the magic of it - given it can be achieved seamlessly.

I'm not the one installing an extension on my browser so that'll be something for you to justify for yourself. May it's perfectly safe, but maybe not, hence the word potentially.
It's speculation without basis. If you have something of substance to add, by all means but otherwise, this doesn't belong here. The app is approved by the Google Chrome Web Store.

Ah right. That would be in unsound FIAT yeah? Brilliant that is!!!
You have a point here?...as this is just vapour as far as I can determine.
 

Firefly

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There was full disclosure from start to finish with this and it was clear from the get go - that this solution implicated a third party processor. You can literally SEE the process in the demo video. There is no mystery. It was acknowledged that Amazon have not officially adopted Bitcoin as a direct payment method.
I believe this is your first post below and I don't see a reference. And a few more posts without referencing the extension if you care to look. This is what I find misleading.

As regards all you can muster being that 'you can't spend it anywhere' - you can spend it in plenty of places. Practically all you will ever need is available on Amazon and you can use Bitcoin to buy anything you want on Amazon. Try that for starters.

As above. (and you mean 'sound money' (Bitcoin) into unsound money (FIAT). If you insist on going with this 'real money' nonsense, then I'm obliged to correct you.
Another rabbit hole I sense. I mean, really, what's not real about Euro?


Yes, those 2 extra mouse clicks are such a terror, you have to come up with this tripe (and I was done explaining it to you a long time ago).
You still haven't provided a reasonable answer to the question of why someone wouldn't just use real money to make a purchase. As seamless as it is, what really IS the point when I can just real money?????


It doesn't happen 'within' their platform. Anyone who has watched the demo video would realise why the distinction is made i.e. because the browser extension overlays the couple of options (those 2 clicks that you find to be such a major hassle) ON their platform and ON their payment page. That its a third party processor and that Amazon are oblivious was never claimed and never in question. That's the magic of it - given it can be achieved seamlessly.
Who is engaging in semantics now???
 

tecate

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I believe this is your first post below and I don't see a reference. And a few more posts without referencing the extension if you care to look. This is what I find misleading.
Seriously? Do we need to do a tally of how many times 'third party processor' was written? The url for the processor - and links multiple times to the video demo - that clearly illustrates what's involved.

Another rabbit hole I sense. I mean, really, what's not real about Euro?
You came along with this 'real money' nonsense. I got the jibe and inference - and I wasn't playing along with it. Crypto and Bitcoin are here to stay and its real.

You still haven't provided a reasonable answer to the question of why someone wouldn't just use real money to make a purchase. As seamless as it is, what really IS the point when I can just real money?????
Well, if you remember back - this all started with a need to prove that Bitcoin can be spent on goods and services. You may not see the point but there are thousands of us who do. There are thousands of us who hold Bitcoin - and it makes life a hell of a lot easier if we're free to spend it. You don't hold crypto, you dont believe it offers you anything and quite possibly it doesn't. However, don't make the mistake of thinking that this is the case for every single person on the planet.

And once again, you use the phrase 'real money' - you mean unsound FIAT money. This 'real money' clouding your judgement but that's your issue to resolve.

Who is engaging in semantics now???
You reap what you sow. I wanted no part of that rabbit hole the two of you took the discussion down but was forced to participate. The distinction is important because otherwise we had both of you trying to claim that this was unworkable when its seamless. I certainly make no apologies for that.
 
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