Do you express the same curiosity when it comes to the use of cash for criminal purposes? By the way, cash is far less traceable than Bitcoin when its used for illicit purposes. Criminals also use cars - should we ban cars?I think it's a valid question to ask.....
We should throw out AML/KYC for good. The americans pushed this in a big way from 9/11 onwards as a weapon. Governments can go fight whatever they want - but there shouldn't be an expectation that it's ok to trample over the rights of ordinary people as they do so.That doesn't mean we should throw away the regulatory frameworks and pretend everything will be better. Cash is of course the easiest format to use, AML/KYC regulations have had an impact there, so that is progress at least.
That's not what is being suggested here - its the other way round. As often happens with new technologies (and particularly those that may be perceived as threatening to certain industries or bodies), they're always sensationalised in terms of what invokes fear. AI - is the same - all we hear is it'll take our jobs and the machines will take over. The internet - we were told it was a haven of criminals and pedo's.The fact that there is fraud in the conventional financial system does not somehow excuse illicit activity in the crypto world.
We can rake over the coals once more if you wish. You're 40% study is outdated. Secondly, if MIT couldn't determine the nature of 70%+ of transactions, it calls into question how they managed that in the 'industry reviewed' [sic] study you cited.The MIT study was able to confirm 2% of transactions as illicit, 21% as lawful, with the rest unclassified, a number of other studies have put the number of illicit transactions north of 40%. Those studies were all on Bitcoin, other cryptos have done a much better job at protecting anonymity.
As above - we have not even gotten anywhere near mass market use yet. Whatever levels there are now will be diluted down as market capitalisation expands over the coming years.I don't think even the most pessimistic of commentators have ever suggested that anything close to 40% of all global transactions using fiat relate to illicit activity.
Criminals use cars - should we ban cars? Let governments and authorities go fight crime in every other way. However, to throw out people's financial privacy and trample over that using fighting money laundering as a pretext is not acceptable. The world will not cave in without all that nonsense. You'll disagree - and that's fine.If we were all to chose the features we wanted in money 2.0, which would we choose? Making it easier to carry out illicit activity, or more difficult?
We should throw out AML/KYC for good. The americans pushed this in a big way from 9/11 onwards as a weapon. Governments can go fight whatever they want - but there shouldn't be an expectation that it's ok to trample over the rights of ordinary people as they do so.
Whatever doubt you have about the development of decentralised cryptocurrency, you can be 100% sure that sooner than you'd imagine, we will be moving to digital currencies and cash will be taken out of the equation. In that scenario - given your love of AML/KYC, that will mean a reality in which every single thing that you have ever purchased will sit on a database somewhere.
The internet - we were told it was a haven of criminals and pedo's.
Your buddy on here suggested that Bitcoin only had value as a tool of criminals. That's plain wrong.
We can rake over the coals once more if you wish. You're 40% study is outdated. Secondly, if MIT couldn't determine the nature of 70%+ of transactions, it calls into question how they managed that in the 'industry reviewed' [sic] study you cited.
Criminals use cars - should we ban cars? Let governments and authorities go fight crime in every other way. However, to throw out people's financial privacy and trample over that using fighting money laundering as a pretext is not acceptable.
They most definitely are - but you're more than entitled to disagree.Right's aren't being trampled on with AML/KYC
There are many others who want them gone. Most in the crypto community want them gone.The only people really complaining about these regs are criminals and those who chose to take money out of the conventional system using unregulated entities and later thinking they are somehow entitled to bring that back into the conventional system without hurdles.
It's not a 'conspiracy theory'. It's indisputable - such data sits on one or more databases and has to be available to certain sections of government/banking, etc.I don't buy much of the conspiracy theories, so I have nothing to fear from them knowing 100%.
I'm pretty sure I didn't confirm a percentage rate for that. What I did was give you an example where new technology was greeted with fear - and that's what made the headlines - not the positives of what the technology can do.I don't remember anyone ever claiming that 40% of internet activity was criminal or pedo related?
Delighted to hear of the job security. Anyway, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Mine is that the shock horror of illicit use via Bitcoin has been disproportionately represented.Many have claimed that, I didn't. I see is as having a disproportionate amount of illicit use, it facilitates criminals, most particularly cybercriminals (but hey, that's job security for me).
Were they all 'industry reviewed' or just the Sydney study?The Oxford University study is from 2017, the Sydney study was Decmber 2018, the MIT one was published only 5 months after that. They all publish their methodology, MIT by their own admission took a very conservative approach, and only looked at a very small sample size.
Again, you're entitled to hold that view but I disagree. People are being inconvenienced, their financial privacy is being trampled on and they're being financially surveiled via AML/KYC. Other than that, its also playing a role in holding back innovation.Criminals do use cars, I don't think anyone is suggesting we should ban them. That would be grossly disproportionate. The vast, vast majority of car use is not associated directly with criminal activity.
Well, it's happening whether the powers that be like it or not. It operates outside the current system. The only difference is that the rate of development of decentralised crypto will be much, much slower in a completely adversarial scenario.What a number of the crypto community is now pushing for is greater anonymity and privacy to the point where regulation is impossible,
They most definitely are - but you're more than entitled to disagree.
It's not a 'conspiracy theory'. It's indisputable - such data sits on one or more databases and has to be available to certain sections of government/banking, etc.
Perhaps you've had your head in the sand for the last few years but there's a massive debate ongoing about privacy as it applies to social media and big tech. Everyone knows that we have traded off our privacy for convenience.
But i guess the thinking on your part is a Fr. Dougal scenario. That's 'far away' right? Small....far away. What happens elsewhere could never ever happen here.
I'm pretty sure I didn't confirm a percentage rate for that. What I did was give you an example where new technology was greeted with fear - and that's what made the headlines - not the positives of what the technology can do.
Were they all 'industry reviewed' or just the Sydney study?
Again, you're entitled to hold that view but I disagree. People are being inconvenienced, their financial privacy is being trampled on and they're being financially surveiled via AML/KYC. Other than that, its also playing a role in holding back innovation..
Well, it's happening whether the powers that be like it or not.
Again, that's your prerogative. I'd sooner maintain my privacy given the choice - but each to their own.I know it does, never disputed it, and I have no issue with it. I choose to use a credit or debit card for the vast majority of my purchases, I'm perfectly aware of the data that gives them. The convenience is more than worth it.
I didn't say that. I said that the purchasing data for everything you've ever bought will lie on a database somewhere. There will be central bank digital currencies in the not so distant future. It's not just a question of credit cards. When those CBDCs emerge, your wealth could be switched off by some civil servant somewhere in an instant. That can't happen with decentralised crypto.Are you suggesting that Visa are selling all my data to a 3rd party to mine so they can influence me in a certain way or fire advertising at me? If not, it's just more irrelevance.
Good for you but the point that was made is that it's not about how you use that data. It's how someone else could - and that won't always be the same. And as per the point I made, ask the protesters in Hong Kong if they would agree with you. But as per your mindset, that's akin to this . Our government are good lads and could always be trusted. You might want to ask Edward Snowden and Julian Assange about what can happen.I work in IT security, I'm very familiar with the data I give away and what I get in return.
I didn't mention a 'level' but it was a thing. You want to disagree - again, that's your prerogative. However, its as clear as night and day that with the emergence of any new revolutionary tech, the negatives are exaggerated. With AI, it's that the machines will take over and that we'll all be out of work.The internet was never greeted with the level of fear you are suggesting. The vast majority or commentary was overwhelmingly positive.
And yet we're still waiting for clarification on this 'industry review' you claimed...The Oxford one was as well, I can find no evidence of the MIT one being reviewed, but then that wasn't really published by MIT was it? It was a carried out by a company with a vested interest in the space in 'collaboration with researchers at MIT'.
They shouldn't be exposed to it from a financial privacy point of view. Secondly, it causes friction on a day to day basis with financial products.Regular people going around doing regular business have nothing to fear from AML/KYC.
Firstly, your 'real money' = 'unsound money'. As regards facing difficulties - that doesn't have to be the case and shouldn't be the case.People who want to play outside the system will face hurdles getting back into real money.
Yes, they are. This nonsense (AML/KYC) is applied in on-boarding as well as off-boarding.No one's preventing anyone getting into crypto
It's only 'moaning' because you're diametrically opposed to it. Secondly, on the 'indictment' charge - its no such thing. Crypto was born into a world with an established system which has been bedded in over generations.The moaning about problems trying to get out of it is an indictment of crypto, not fiat.
Really? And yet the real gangsters wont need it. HSBC, ABN Amro, Deutsche Bank, Morgan Stanley and a host of others don;t need it. They have a perfectly good crooked system in place already.Great, gangster's paradise!
Again, that's your prerogative. I'd sooner maintain my privacy given the choice - but each to their own.
I didn't say that. I said that the purchasing data for everything you've ever bought will lie on a database somewhere.
Really intelligent stuff to declare your data privacy an 'irrelevance' but i'm not a whole lot surprised given the exchanges of late.
Good for you but the point that was made is that it's not about how you use that data. It's how someone else could - and that won't always be the same.
Our government are good lads and could always be trusted. You might want to ask Edward Snowden and Julian Assange about what can happen.
However, its as clear as night and day that with the emergence of any new revolutionary tech, the negatives are exaggerated. With AI, it's that the machines will take over and that we'll all be out of work.
They shouldn't be exposed to it from a financial privacy point of view. Secondly, it causes friction on a day to day basis with financial products.
Firstly, your 'real money' = 'unsound money'.
Yes, they are. This nonsense (AML/KYC) is applied in on-boarding as well as off-boarding.
It's only 'moaning' because you're diametrically opposed to it. Secondly, on the 'indictment' charge - its no such thing. Crypto was born into a world with an established system which has been bedded in over generations.
Perhaps Leo you didn't understand this - but I said that's your prerogative. However, it's not mine. Governments have lent on visa/mastercard and others to throttle the accounts of those that have spoken up against them and exposed wrongdoing. Other than that, your data is available to more than just visa. Additionally, your data can be hacked.Mastercard or Visa haven't compromised my data yet, I see nothing to suggest that they will do so, despite them being amongst the most prized targets for attackers. I'd sooner trust them than a collection of unregulated companies operating in legal grey space.
Eh, it exposes plenty Leo. On the second 'point' that's none of your business.First of all it doesn't. Mastercard or Visa don't have access to that level of detail, they just see the transaction total. So what relevance does excessive voluntary public sharing of data on social media have to do with this? If you're that afraid of the evil state, what are you even doing posting online exposing your location?
It's clear as night and day, that's what you're going with - and you'll scream blue murder that's not what you meant. I don't care. That's my take away from your commentary. Others can make up their own minds.Where did I say that?
Bully for you. Then it's agreed - it's about how others will use that data.Clearly I wasn't talking about how I use it...
You are sadly underestimating the powers of nation states if you feel crypto of any variety will protect you from evil states ability to monitor your actions.
I can't help you with that. If that's your view, that's your view - but I strongly disagree.Maybe it's just your news preferences at play, but the exaggeration usually equally spans both extremes.
Eh, who said anything about tax evasion? I certainly didn't. I talked about financial surveillance. They're not the same thing. All KYC/AML does is finacially surveil citizens, cause friction in terms of people accessing financial services, costs a shed load of money in and of itself - costs which are passed on to consumers. The world functioned just fine without it in the past and it can again.As a member of society, you are not entitled to private income that you hide from the state, that is tax evasion and cheats your fellow citizens. All AML/KYC does is help uphold that social contract.
Not by its underlying nature it doesn't! As regards manipulation - that exists in the conventional world of finance - it's where it came from. Markets with small market caps can be moved quite easily. However, as they grow, it becomes more and more difficult.It's more sound than the crypto market which continues to show evidence of wide scale manipulation by those unregulated entities in charge.
100s of thousands of additional consumers would have been onboarded into the crypto economy by now if it wasn't for the friction caused by your precious AML/KYC.How is anyone managing to buy crypto so? Is that why the price is plummetting?
Let's be clear here - it's moaning because you're diametrically opposed to decentralised crypto. Other than that, anyone who may have an interest in crypto is part of the conventional economy and conventional systems as that's what we came up with. That's the system that was established and that we inherited. Last time I checked, I was still entitled to an opinion. I was still entitled to call these precious 'rules' into question. By inferrence you suggest that because these are 'rules' that they are beyond reproach. Governments are made up of people and they do wrong or get it wrong all the time. I have every right to call those rules into question - just as much as you have to disagree. So lets be clear - this is 'moaning' from you.No, it's moaning because these people want to play in the regulated financial system, but they are unwilling to play by the rules of that system and somehow feel that's unfair.
On the second 'point' that's none of your business.
It's private and I don't intend discussing it. With this, it is you that is raising a point with no relevance (in terms of the actual subject for discussion).So you can just raise points that have no relevance, and when questioned just say it's none of our business! What a constructive way to engage in debate.
It's private and I don't intend discussing it. With this, it is you that is raising a point with no relevance (in terms of the actual subject for discussion).
I did no such thing. You said "what are you even doing posting online and exposing your location".It was you who brought it up!
I did no such thing. You said "what are you even doing posting online and exposing your location".
Oh, my - how insightful. I;ll consider this an intervention then.Fair enough, you have selective paranoia
Yeah, you can keep the stick Johnny. Put it somewhere safe and in a few years when theI considered that Bitcoin is like candy floss, explosive expansion from little to massive. I now consider that to be wrong because I forgot that the stick has value
Firstly - I pointed this out before but you continue to ignore it. If (and when) cash is removed, we won't be left with just visa/mastercard. There will be a central bank digital currency (CBDC) in place.So no examples of Visa or Mastercard then, no? Thought not.
Firstly - I pointed this out before but you continue to ignore it. If (and when) cash is removed, we won't be left with just visa/mastercard. There will be a central bank digital currency (CBDC) in place.
Visa and government - are you trying to tell us that visa don't share data with governments and the various arms of government? As a committed statist, of course what could possibly happen with personal data in the hands of government, right? Ask the protesters in Hong Kong who won't use payment cards.
You cheapen your argument with your 'illuminati' jibe. You claimed that Visa/Mastercard were beyond reproach in terms of safeguarding personal data. You can't defend that so you try this 'illuminati' nonsense. I haven't mentioned anything related to conspiracy theory. It's not something that's all that interesting to me for the most part.Yeah, I get it, and then the Illuminati will finally emerge as the powers behind it all.
I'm talking about a broader and lower level of financial surveillance and its application in relation to everyday people. I wasn't necessarily talking about someone who needs to make Snowden level security arrangements.My point is you're fooling yourself if you think cryptos go any way towards protecting you from such government action.
Technology changes and we have to change with it. Furthermore it can be used positively or used against us. What's happening in China (particularly with social scoring and their use of facial recognition) has brought to the fore that debate. As I said before, we have all traded privacy for convenience. As tech marches on and the level of data collection expands exponentially, we're going to place more value on data privacy. That is not my sole contention. It's been a hot subject globally - increasingly so over the past 18 months.If you want to avoid the potential for that level of scrutiny, you need to get offline and stay offline, there is no technology that will protect you from it. What CA are you using that is immune to government influence? Remember the Lenovo Superfish adware that intercepted and modified encrypted web traffic? .
Given that you mention Snowden...he used Bitcoin during that pickle he found himself in. More recently, he believes in the project albeit that he wants to see the application of privacy features as do many in the community. But...as above...I am not primarily thinking in terms of guys who need a Snowden level security regimen. I'm thinking about ordinary people.Snowden's leaks on how the NSA cracked VPNs? That's only the tip of what's going on, most of the big nation states have far more complex abilities.
And yet they do monitor payment cards. It's a reasonable expectation that such data is useful to them in doing so.The Chinese don't need to monitor payment card use, lots of the photos show the protesters with their phones out!! The level of facial recognition capability they have means they can identify they want on public transport or in public spaces, they are spraying protesters in the front lines with a dye for easy tracking too, so even full face coverage isn't enough.
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