Who's not paying their fair share?

[shnaek]

I can afford to pay more and in a fair society I should be paying more.

Don't worry, Latrade. They'll take your money. Then they'll use it to buy a field somewhere, or buy a 500k house for people who 'can't afford' to buy one, or to fly off to Australia on a fact finding mission, or to set up a comittee to report back in ten years on what steps we need to take to get to this 'fair' society.

I worry about fair, because the definition is so subjective. And when 'fair' is implemented by those of low general ability and IQ you just end up with some other excuse for money wasting and begrudgery. More money will not solve Ireland's problems - it never did. We need vision and solid thinking - and I see none of that alas.

 

[z107]

Which comes back to my own definition of fair and my own opinion of who isn't paying their fair share: me. It's all well and good looking around for different scapegoats, but if I want this country back on its feet and I want a fair society and to not face the mess we're in again I have to accept that my years of a good salary and low tax are over.

Just because you're willing and able to pay extra, does not mean that that will get the country 'back on its feet'. It just means that you don't mind handing over your hard earned Euros to Anglo and associated cronies.

Even when the IMF/EU intercede and we have some form of leadership, I still do not have the appetite to bail out rich people.

 

[shnaek]

I still do not have the appetite to bail out rich people.

It's not just rich people you are bailing out. Look at the report of the CAG. You are bailing out the failed government of a failed country. We need to get the basics right before we can ask for anyone to pay for this mess.

 

[Purple]

I am now of the opinion that once BOI and AIB are anywhere near back on their feet the government should let Anglo fail and the bond holders who bought into it when it was a financial boil waiting to burst should have to share the pain. At that point we should concentrate on our real problem; the public spending cuts that need to be made. Even if Anglo costs 70 billion that still only three and a half years worth of what we are overspending just running the country.
I’m more than willing to pay more taxes but not to deliver increments to public sector employees or expenses to TD’s or stimulate the building sector again or for any other measure that doesn’t improve Irelands trade competitiveness and reduce.

Labour are talking about job creation being their main priority when/if they are in power after the next election. While it’s a nice idea when you look back at the late 90’s when we were doing well economically but unemployment was remaining high it was the same sort of political rhetoric that let the government to stimulate the construction sector in order to provide jobs for low and unskilled people. Any steps to create jobs that are not skilled and export focused will just drag up back down into the mire.

 

[orka]

I'm resigned to having to pay more because there's really no other way out of this mess (although if there is any way at this stage to make the bondholders of Anglo accept the consequences of their 'higher return - allegedly higher risk - but not really because the Irish government are patsies' investments, that would make me a bit happier). But if we accept we are where we are, having to pay more would sit better with me if some of the unfairnesses (from the point of view of those who pay much more than a proportionate share) were dealt with. (1) We have too many people outside the tax net; (2) there seems to be a disincentive to take a job due to overly generous welfare and rent allowance - it seems wrong that an unemployed couple with 3 children and rent allowance should get the equivalent of a 42K salary (plus a medical card) and (3) better-off pensioners seem to be getting away too lightly.

 

[shnaek]

We are far to easily resigned to pay more without agreeing what it is we are going to be paying for. Is it any wonder the government shows such little respect for our hard earned money when we ourselves show so little respect for it?

 

[orka]

We are far to easily resigned to pay more without agreeing what it is we are going to be paying for.

Do you have any workable suggestions for how we can have a say in agreeing what we are going to pay for? Our democratically elected representatives do the agreeing for us. I want to let the bondholders pay for their investment decisions - this annoys me pretty much most out of this entire debacle as it is an area where we could still save ourselves a lot of money - and it would be nothing more than making the bondholders keep their end of the deal - if they wanted a risk-free investment, they should have bought German government bonds - they wanted a higher rate so went with private sector bonds but you don't get a higher return without higher risk - except our Governemnt kindly decided to guarantee them after the fact - muppets. I've already written to my local TDs about it but I'm guessing not a lot will change.

 

[Chris]

To try and give a basic annalogy.

I earn €30,000 but my outgoings are €50,000. I also have discovered that my wife has been very naughty and run up her credit card to €50,000. (lots of shoes)

I am desperately trying to cut my outgoings to bring the figure down towards the €30,000 income while at the same time I am trying to increase my income(this is the fiscal deficit). I am also having to bailout my wifes credit card debt and fund the repayments of that(bank bailout).

This thread is looking at the cuts being made to bridge the gap between income and expenditure and confusing it with the repayments being arranged for the finance of the bank bailout.

Society can not be based on the individual, it must allow for the collective. We have, weather we like it or not, a collective financial issue, the burden of this will not be shared equally just as the benifits of a good economy are not shared equally.

Suck it up bud, and get used to it theres more to come.

Your analogy is great, but for some reason people and especially politicians think that it's somehow different when government does the borrowing.
The only reason the financial issue is now a collective one is because of the government's trigger happy actions. I don't agree that the economic part of society should be treated as a collective. I want to live in a society where the mistakes of a few are not paid for by everyone. All this does is to encourage those few to take on ever more risk, as in the event of failure they will not bear the full loss.

My fair share is €0.

My fair share should be €0

This is probably the case, and is why I've got one foot in and one foot out of the country. I'd hate to leave, but there's only so much auld sh*te that a man can take.

I'm the same situation. Packing up and leaving is not the most happy thought, but in conversations with my wife in recent times it is becoming ever more appealing. Let's see what the next 1 or 2 budgets bring and if there will be some serious talk about limiting government powers (I know, this might be a utopian hope).

But the point is that the min wage for the lesser jobs are not enticing people to work. The small co cannot pay €12 an hour to make it worthwhile for person to work. The small co is expected to produce their goods for less money cos everyone believes that they are paying too much so we remain in an ever decreasing circle. How can we re-shape it? Our cost of sales are currently increasing, but the customer won't tolerate a price increase and the staff don't want to work for the min wage.......tell me all you folks in the know, how do I close this issue? In the longterm it is best to shut shop, settle bills and add 12 more people to the dole queue! The long term being Jan 2011.

And believe me, from talking to our customers there are many businesses thinking the same way, so that 400,000 on the dole could grow very quickly and quietly in Jan because we don't have the voice of the large corp.

This is exactly the problem with minimum wages. You as an employer can only offer a wage that your customers are willing to reimburse you for. This is the case no matter how big or small the company. In the public eye it is always perceived that it is businesses that exploit wages, when if you really want to point blame then it is the customer of the products. All that minimum wages achieve is unemployment.

We are far to easily resigned to pay more without agreeing what it is we are going to be paying for. Is it any wonder the government shows such little respect for our hard earned money when we ourselves show so little respect for it?

I completely agree. Handing over more money to government, while they are still in bed with the same lobbyists and still have the unrestrained power to drive the country into ruin is a ridiculous idea. Without some serious law making that restricts and prevents governments from certain actions, absolutely nothing will change.

 

[Chris]

Do you have any workable suggestions for how we can have a say in agreeing what we are going to pay for? Our democratically elected representatives do the agreeing for us. I want to let the bondholders pay for their investment decisions - this annoys me pretty much most out of this entire debacle as it is an area where we could still save ourselves a lot of money - and it would be nothing more than making the bondholders keep their end of the deal - if they wanted a risk-free investment, they should have bought German government bonds - they wanted a higher rate so went with private sector bonds but you don't get a higher return without higher risk - except our Governemnt kindly decided to guarantee them after the fact - muppets. I've already written to my local TDs about it but I'm guessing not a lot will change.

Well my suggestion is make constitutional amendments that restrict the government's cavalier attitude to our money. Ideally it would state that the government was not allowed to take on any debt whatsoever, but I concede that that may be utopian. Maybe something like government debts is not allowed to rise above 20% of GDP and if you want to provide a service then sell the idea through taxation. There'd soon be some tightening of the belt.
As for you Anglo comment, I fully agree, the bondholders should lose everything, as that is the risk they entered. But unfortunately past and present bailouts of creditors has precedence that allows creditors to ignore the risk factor altogether. That's one sensational failure of crony capitalism.

 

[Purple]

Without some serious law making that restricts and prevents governments from certain actions, absolutely nothing will change.

Well my suggestion is make constitutional amendments that restrict the government's cavalier attitude to our money. Ideally it would state that the government was not allowed to take on any debt whatsoever, but I concede that that may be utopian. Maybe something like government debts is not allowed to rise above 20% of GDP and if you want to provide a service then sell the idea through taxation. There'd soon be some tightening of the belt.

I agree with everything you say but even if, by some miracle, the government and people wanted a properly run economy based on sound economic principles I see a major stumbling block when it comes to framing legislation. I simply don’t thing the senior officials in the respective government departments are capable of writing a finance bill or constructing legislation to create a properly regulated financial system that punished white collar criminals. While corruption and cronyism has been a major problem in Ireland since the foundation of the state in my opinion gross incompetence by our political leaders and the upper echelons of the civil and public service was the catalyst this time.

 

[Latrade]

Just because you're willing and able to pay extra, does not mean that that will get the country 'back on its feet'. It just means that you don't mind handing over your hard earned Euros to Anglo and associated cronies.

Even when the IMF/EU intercede and we have some form of leadership, I still do not have the appetite to bail out rich people.

I never said I minded anything, I'd love to not pay any tax whatsoever, but then I also want free education, social ambulance, etc etc, so I'm not going to have that luxury. Yes there's the bank bailout, but there's also the deficit which is unrelated to the bailout and which is part of what we're paying for.

My point is I can accept that in my own definition of a "fair" society, I don't pay my fair share. That in any new system that closes/eliminates the deficit and has the country back on its feet, I accept that my days of relatively low tax are probably over.

Maybe I'm the only one who thinks that, if so, then we'll never get back on our feet. I don't see that as socialism, I just see it as fair.

I'll echo the sentiments that I don't trust this or any proposed administration we're presented with to actually provide us with the right balance of state and private means of running a country and a fair tax system, mainly because no other country has really managed that utopia. I don't even trust this or future administrations to get us anywhere near that utopia either.

But again, that's not my beef. My real beef is 3 years of finger pointing and scapegoating (in many cases with some justification) at others and what others should do. I took all pay rises offered, I enjoyed the low taxes, I bought into the whole thing (though with caution) I can at least see how I was part of the problem. I can see how I can be part of the solution.

We've a situation where the view is everyone else does their part except me. We've students and their supporters pressuring for free 3rd level education, but then quite happily telling me that they're going to take those qualifications and earn money abroad now. So I don't even get to see them earn money and pay it back.

We've people who won't move to a different county to get a job, but will upsticks and leave the country and leave their debt behind for everyone else.

Basically we've everyone unwilling to do their fair share, but expecting everyone else to carry the can and clean up the mess.

 

[z107]

I believe it's gone too far. There's nothing left to save. Budget 2011 will just be cosmetic.

BoI and AIB are never going to get back on their feet. The government can't afford the 'blanket guarantee' - and when enough people realise this there will be trouble.

All that's left now is either sell up and leave the country now, or to wait and see what happens with the IMF/EU and see if you can weather the storm.

 

[shnaek]

I'll echo the sentiments that I don't trust this or any proposed administration we're presented with to actually provide us with the right balance of state and private means of running a country and a fair tax system, mainly because no other country has really managed that utopia.

No, but many countries have done far better than us. Many have done worse, but I don't believe in comparing oneself to the worst. There are lessons we should have learned from our EU neighbours. We didn't have to make all these mistakes.

I don't even trust this or future administrations to get us anywhere near that utopia either.

I agree. And that saddens me greatly. I don't know if I can commit to that, or commit my children's futures to that either.

 

[Latrade]

No, but many countries have done far better than us. Many have done worse, but I don't believe in comparing oneself to the worst. There are lessons we should have learned from our EU neighbours. We didn't have to make all these mistakes.


I agree. And that saddens me greatly. I don't know if I can commit to that, or commit my children's futures to that either.

All agreed, but we look at these good systems and don't always realise the shift in how we as individuals are taxed or live required. Yes many of our EU counterparts didn't do as badly and that was down in part to state control, but it was also down in part because their citizens didn't get caught in a credit/house buying frenzy.

I despair to hear from the opposition a whole load of counter measures to the current government that are the same old fire fighting measures and nothing long term. Yes we have to fix the problem, but we need to fix the entire system too. It requires a root and branch new system but it's easier to talk about fire fighting than anything constructive.

But I also despair that no one is really prepared to see the changes in lifestyle and costs necessary or willing to personally do such.

 

[number7]

I think that the current crop of politicians as so embedded in the swill trough that it will require really radical action to change the course of the country and adress some of the issues in this thread so here are my suggestion for some solutions to our countries problems.

Modern day Bloodless revolution
I see the current political establisment as an impediment to resolving our countries problems as they have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. So as a starting point we need a modern day bloodless revolution.

I propose that a new political party is started "New Democracy". In its articles of association there would be a self destruct clause which all members would sign up to. This would read as follows " I, as a member of New Democracy, undertake to resign my membership and desolve this party on date 3 years after the next general election. Should New Democracy be in government at that time it will call a general election.

New Democracy will approach well known experts in their fields to act as Ministers of the proposed new government. These will be unveiled at the launch of the party. All of these will come from outside of politics and will promise to resign from politics at the successful conclusion of the project.

The aim of New Democracy is to gain power in order to change the way this country is governed and to hand back to the people a system of government radically changed.

Now you see them, Now you don't
In order to achieve the stated aims it will be necessary to maximise the number of elected TD'S and to minimise the opposition numbers. To do this New Democracy will stand a candidate for every seat, for example in Galway west (a 5 seater) they will stand 5 candidates numbered 1 to 5.There will be 166 candidates including the 12 on the national executive. All of these will agree to vote for the changes in numbers in the dail on election allowing the national executive to change the numbers in the dail.

I call these the invisable TD's.

Ideally this will result in at least 84 td's from New Democracy giving control of the dail. This will give the power to pass law as required.

First thing on the agenda will be the promise of reducing the dail and senate to a more realistic number. New election will again follow the same format as the one before, Ideally at least 31 members of New Democracy will be elected in the 2nd election again giving control of the reduced dail .

Now we have a chance to take some decisions that would benifit the country not just the usual blood suckers.

Personally I would like to see the new government standardise the tax system, abolish all of the stealth tax's and levies, take back our natural resources and infastructure and fishing rights, make all public transport free, outlaw clamping, make parking free again in public parking spots, make all buildings have a water harvesting facility, make teachers work the same number of days as everyone else, abolish the minimum wage, abolish the premium on sunday working, bring in social conscription, make bankruptcy 3 years, outlaw recourse mortgages, make all home harvested energy free, abolish road tax, abolish stamp duty, abolish airport tax.

Anyway theres my ramblings.

 

[Chris]

I agree with everything you say but even if, by some miracle, the government and people wanted a properly run economy based on sound economic principles I see a major stumbling block when it comes to framing legislation. I simply don’t thing the senior officials in the respective government departments are capable of writing a finance bill or constructing legislation to create a properly regulated financial system that punished white collar criminals. While corruption and cronyism has been a major problem in Ireland since the foundation of the state in my opinion gross incompetence by our political leaders and the upper echelons of the civil and public service was the catalyst this time.

I don't think it should be coming up with laws on how to run an economy, but rather with rules restricting the government's power to intervene and "run" the economy in the first place, as this is at the core of this and all past financial crises. This is not difficult at all to achieve.

 

[plendoza]

Modern day Bloodless revolution
I see the current political establisment as an impediment to resolving our countries problems as they have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. So as a starting point we need a modern day bloodless revolution.

Dont waste your time I say. Best thing is to keep the current lot in power, let things take their natural course and the IMF can come in and slash the public costs etc. This will be the quickest way to sort things out. Anyone who thinks the opposition or any politicans can sort this mess out is dreaming. Bring on the armegeddon that's what I say

 

[number7]

Modern day Bloodless revolution
I see the current political establisment as an impediment to resolving our countries problems as they have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. So as a starting point we need a modern day bloodless revolution.

Dont waste your time I say. Best thing is to keep the current lot in power, let things take their natural course and the IMF can come in and slash the public costs etc. This will be the quickest way to sort things out. Anyone who thinks the opposition or any politicans can sort this mess out is dreaming. Bring on the armegeddon that's what I say

Or we could do that.

 

[Chris]

Modern day Bloodless revolution
I see the current political establisment as an impediment to resolving our countries problems as they have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. So as a starting point we need a modern day bloodless revolution.

Dont waste your time I say. Best thing is to keep the current lot in power, let things take their natural course and the IMF can come in and slash the public costs etc. This will be the quickest way to sort things out. Anyone who thinks the opposition or any politicans can sort this mess out is dreaming. Bring on the armegeddon that's what I say

Yes indeed, the financial crisis was created by governments and their central banks; they neither have the vested interest nor political will nor brains to do what is needed. The recession is the cure to the crisis and every single politician is suggesting "solutions" to end the cure. While I don't agree with most of what the IMF come out with I agree that they would do a better job.

 

[csirl]

Below is a post I made on another thread on this forum. It bugs me that people keep on asking when the IMF are coming when the reality is, that as bad as things are here, they are not as bad as other countries such as our neighbours, the UK.

The reality is that the IMF will be in the UK before they are in Ireland, so dont worry about them coming here until they turn up there.

Interestingly, a lot of the negative press about Ireland seems to stem from "reports" from financial institutions. Do these institutions have a vested interest in throwing the spotlight off other countries and onto Ireland? Answer is yes, especially if they are nationalised/partially nationalised or dependant on guarantees from a government or receiving loan repayments from a government. Financial institutes wont bite off the hand that feeds them and if the IMF were to go into the UK, a lot of UK and US banks would lose out.

According to the IMF's own projections, the general Government debt in Ireland will be 93% of GDP and the budget deficit will be 11.5% by the end of 2011. The corresponding figures for the UK are 94% and 12.5%.

Therefore, however bad we've got it, the UK is in a worse off position and, according to IMF figures, more likely to go bust.

The debt figures for USA and France will be even worse at 100% and 99% respectively.

So you must ask yourself the question, why so much negative press for Ireland? You would think that given that the UK is a much bigger economy and is in worse shape than Ireland, that it would be getting all the headlines?