EBS What does an EBS "Variable Base Rate" mortgage mean?

Does anyone have a suggestion of who is best in the media to report and tease this issue out and give it to them , would need to be high profile paper or maybe RTÉ ? Or maybe give to bbc newsnight if no one locally will touch it ?????
 
I would recommend Charlie Weston / Irish Independent. I have been keeping him involved on a twitter dialogue with AIB customer service about EBS Tracker issue since last december.
 
Hey there - In my research i ahve come across another interesting article from feb 2008 and written by charlie weston!! good man charlie :) -

https://www.independent.ie/business...-accused-of-chasing-commissions-26424644.html

see a few bits and pieces as follows:

In the past few months Ulster Bank and Permanent TSB have cut the commissions they pay brokers who arrange mortgages.

Yesterday the head of EBS Building Society's new broker business said his firm was seeing a significant shift of broker business away from Permanent TSB and Ulster to his new operation, Haven.

EBS's Haven is paying 1pc of the value of a mortgage to brokers who generate more than €5m in business a year.

He said Ulster had cut the commission it pays from 1pc to 0.50pc, while Permanent TSB has cut its commissions by a similar amount.

But what has particularly infuriated brokers is that commission payments will be clawed back by PTSB if the mortgage goes off the books within five years, in contrast to the current three-year clawback.
 
Hi all, i rang the EBS review line again today and as im sure some of ye were told my partner signed a document at the start of her initial 3 year fixed rate period that she would go on to the "prevailing variable rate"at the end of the 3 year period. When i askex him about the "variable base rate" terminology which disappeared overnight he told me that was a bank rate and wasnt a tracker. I also said to him that theres no reference to an SVR rate and that these accounts wete suddenly transformed into SVRs overnight and that this was illegal as SVR isnt referenced in the 2007 loan offer letter and tbus a breach of contract occured here, eg a tracker rate should have been offered as well as the prevailing variable rate. He also said it was up to the customer to ask for a tracker rate and that the broker should have advised her of tracker mortgages existence. The problem here is both types of mortgage had the same rate at the time. The other problem here potentially is one that appears on other threads re prevailing variable rate, eg the banks prevailing rate in 2010 was the SVR which is of course what the banks will say in a dispute even though there is no reference to SVR in the 2007 contract. I also wish to advise that i will again be contacting Michael McGrath/Peter Burke about this and will ask them will they be compelling Mr Des Fitzgerald, other senior EBS management and former EBS management going back to 2005ish to attend the committee as hes been avoiding requests and calls to attend. Mr Burke incidentally has failed to reply to my last email on this issue.
Finally has anyone been on to Padraig Kissane about this issue and if not would people be willing to meet up with regard to maybe making a joint approach to him or some other options if any that should be discussed, eg a meeting with Michael McGrath to present him with evidence etc as i feel were not going to be entertained by EBS as the review guy told me my partners account is deemed not impacted. Looking forward to peoples thoughts on this, regards, Tonymac
 
Just to update i have now emailed both Michael McGrath and Peter Burke again and told him our information here is that Des Fitzgerald is resisting calls to appear in front of their committee and that surely they can instruct him to do so. I have also asked them again to question him on this matter and i look forward to their replies as i do to replies and opinions on this site.
 
tonymac said:
Hi all, i rang the EBS review line again today and as im sure some of ye were told my partner signed a document at the start of her initial 3 year fixed rate period that she would go on to the "prevailing variable rate"at the end of the 3 year period. When i askex him about the "variable base rate" terminology which disappeared overnight he told me that was a bank rate and wasnt a tracker. I also said to him that theres no reference to an SVR rate and that these accounts wete suddenly transformed into SVRs overnight and that this was illegal as SVR isnt referenced in the 2007 loan offer letter and tbus a breach of contract occured here, eg a tracker rate should have been offered as well as the prevailing variable rate. He also said it was up to the customer to ask for a tracker rate and that the broker should have advised her of tracker mortgages existence. The problem here is both types of mortgage had the same rate at the time. The other problem here potentially is one that appears on other threads re prevailing variable rate, eg the banks prevailing rate in 2010 was the SVR which is of course what the banks will say in a dispute even though there is no reference to SVR in the 2007 contract. I also wish to advise that i will again be contacting Michael McGrath/Peter Burke about this and will ask them will they be compelling Mr Des Fitzgerald, other senior EBS management and former EBS management going back to 2005ish to attend the committee as hes been avoiding requests and calls to attend. Mr Burke incidentally has failed to reply to my last email on this issue.
Finally has anyone been on to Padraig Kissane about this issue and if not would people be willing to meet up with regard to maybe making a joint approach to him or some other options if any that should be discussed, eg a meeting with Michael McGrath to present him with evidence etc as i feel were not going to be entertained by EBS as the review guy told me my partners account is deemed not impacted. Looking forward to peoples thoughts on this, regards, Tonymac
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Thanks for update Tonymac. EBS are currently only considering “test cases” as being within the scope of the review even though you will have the same T’s & C’s i.e. variable base rate. The test cases have additional evidence supporting them such as broker correspondence confirming variable base to be tracker or other substantial evidence that indicates the variable base rate is a tracker and not a SVR e.g. Bills haven case. Worryingly this way of managing complaints could be a way of reducing contagion of costs and the amount of customers they will have to redress. However in other tracker cases in other banks the result of the test case seems to then be applied to all customers with relative rate/T’s & C’s.

So ultimately their decision on all variable base rate mortgages will be dictated by their decision on those few test cases that are still being reviewed. This is also a way for EBS to manage potential complaints such as yourself efficiently with stock answers. One of these answers seems to be placing blame at the doors of EBS appointed brokers.
 
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This is fine and good luck to those involved but my fear is theyll conceed these on the basis of privacy and that nobody will be able to get near them. Otherwise the supporting evidence isnt always there at the same level in all cases. As you mention "stock answers" the guy i spoke with today mentioned the brokers. I rang my partners broker and he doesnt have any correspondence anymore as the company doesnt exist anymore and "stuffd gets disposed of after 7 years". Other than this they either concede on all cases by order of CB or antone not settled goes to Padraig Kissane or the courts. I await with bated breath but i still say we should meet to go through stuff we do have and prepare to get in touch with PK.
 
tonymac said:
This is fine and good luck to those involved but my fear is theyll conceed these on the basis of privacy and that nobody will be able to get near them. Otherwise the supporting evidence isnt always there at the same level in all cases.
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Nothing to base this on but I think/hope the final response for the test cases will dictate the outcome for the 3000 accounts identified by PK at the last committee meeting. That’s well below the number of accounts I think are affected but that’s the number they’ve put out there and I doubt its a figure that’s been plucked from nowhere....perhaps it’s a palatable figure for EBS/AIB in terms of redress. It may also represent the number of complaints they’ve received regarding this variable base rate & EBS prevailing rate issue but I can see those 3000 accounts being treated in the same way as test cases, win or lose.

I do think the “prevailing variable rate” cohort is different to the “variable base rate” group. The “prevailing” cohort were on trackers to start with and signed a different fixed rate application form. For what it’s worth I think they have a good case too but their loan offers or the fixed rate conversion form did not say they should revert to a rate called “variable base” after fixed term ended with a current rate% named e.g. 5.25%.
 
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Hi Tonymac - i think if we all go to padraic kissane - which I think of lot of people here already are with him - together we will provide him with enough info to make the case. Thats my take on the current situation - I have gone back to the AIB SARS team as the information they sent me was in my opinion VERY incomplete - I have copies of documents and on email that they never included in the info they sent me.
I have also been in contact with my broker looking for communications from ebs/haven to him defining for him what a variable base rate is and I have nothing back - he says he has searched but can't find anything. He did also indicate that he believed there should be a lot more info on my mortgage application etc than what I have seen
The second thing I asked him for was the actual name of the person in EBS/HAVEN - who told him in July 2008 that a tracker mortgage was not available anymore to me when I drew down the loan check - he said there was too many people involved and it was too long ago? - BUT I do have a person, a VERY senior person in HAVEN Mortgages mentioned in email correspondences between the broker, my solicitor and me, that he wanted my solicitor to write to directly and we were given his name and email address to send the letter to, over some detail of the loan right before I got the loan cheque issued? I am thinking he would have been aware I was denied a tracker at this point or perhaps even played some part in it - interestingly this letter or any correspondence/notes after it was sent in toHAVEN/EBS - never showed up in my FOI
Which is all pretty Interesting :)
 
Hi haveaniceday, will be writing to the AIB/SARS next week but wouldnt be surprised if like yourself i get incomplete information. When i get whatever i get ill probably be heading in PKs direction as ill have all the info im going to have at that point. Sounds like im a bit behind a few people but hopefully when he sees a few of us that all the info we give him will be enough info/ammo for him to fight a case. Hopefully we'll be able to keep each other posted on how its going but ive a feeling we might find out in the media if PK feels we have a case, good luck in the meantime
 
Hi TonyMAC
I think we should also all try and find who the point of contact was in EBS/Haven was a the time - for our mortgages - who passed on the information or mis information re TRACKERS being variable base rates and /or not available when in fact they were - as EBS were so quick to out point to me that it was my broker who was at fault

and as I know very well my broker did request a tracker for me from EBS ( i have the copy of the fax ) - and i know he was told the tracker by ebs/ haven it was then not available at the time of draw down even though it was drawn down in july 2008 and not october 2008 which is when it turns out they were actually stopped
- so funny they should blame the broker - surely they should be looking for who in their employment misinformed my broker?

- so now i think its time we look to try to identifying the individuals in EBS/haven who mis informed the brokers - rather than targeting the organisation as a whole - as I mentioned the name of the person I have as a contact on my mortgage application is TODAY a very senior employee of Haven Mortgages!
 
haveaniceday said:
Hi TonyMAC
I think we should also all try and find who the point of contact was in EBS/Haven was a the time - for our mortgages - who passed on the information or mis information re TRACKERS being variable base rates and /or not available when in fact they were - as EBS were so quick to out point to me that it was my broker who was at fault

and as I know very well my broker did request a tracker for me from EBS ( i have the copy of the fax ) - and i know he was told the tracker by ebs/ haven it was then not available at the time of draw down even though it was drawn down in july 2008 and not october 2008 which is when it turns out they were actually stopped
- so funny they should blame the broker - surely they should be looking for who in their employment misinformed my broker?

- so now i think its time we look to try to identifying the individuals in EBS/haven who mis informed the brokers - rather than targeting the organisation as a whole - as I mentioned the name of the person I have as a contact on my mortgage application is TODAY a very senior employee of Haven Mortgages!
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Haveaniceday-I wonder if your broker would be willing to write a letter to Padraic Kissane detailing your case; his request for a tracker in January 2008 & EBS then sending you a variable base loan offer in response to that request; then EBS saying you are not getting a tracker in July 2008 (why would they do this if variable base rate was not a tracker!) but then not changing the wording of the loan offer or removing the variable base term.

Also, sounds like your broker thought the variable base rate was a tracker or at the very least he was uncertain about the term itself so how would a customer be sure what a variable base rate was!! We know it’s a tracker now but it’s an ambiguous term used in a contract so any argument should favour the customer. If he were to articulate these issues on paper to PK it would really help your case and likely support other cases too. Not least your case and new info you’ve discovered may identify the EBS official who pulled the trigger on “magically transforming” the variable base rate/tracker into a SVR.
 
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haveaniceday said:
Hey just found another story about how well EBS were treating brokers in 2007
Great commissions and great trips too by the looks of it!
https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/sunday-independent-ireland/20070916/283394827450441
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McGovern, Tinney...& Kieran Tansey all mentioned in this article from 2007. McGovern has since retired, Tinney has already appeared at an oireachtas committee to whistleblow about what happened in EBS...Tansey is the current managing director of Haven. Perhaps he would know more than Des Fitzgerald about this variable base rate issue?

Tansey has been involved in EBS broker sales since the mid 2000’s and has been a director of Haven since it was established in 2008. Fitzgerald only joined EBS as chief exec in 2012.
 
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Hi all, just to give an update from.my email enquiries, Michael McGrath got back to me and told me that EBS have been asked to appear before the committee alongside AIB in july. AIB responded by saying they deal with all EBS tracker issues but the committee told them they want EBS to appear alongside AIB so at least thats going to happen and hopefully they'll get loads from the committee.
 
Thanks Tonymac - Can I ask if you are speaking with Michael McGrath - I think - see
's comments above - Kieran Tansey From Haven Mortgages / EBS would be the person who knows everything about the EBS Mortgages back from 2004- 2008 - From reading up on the situation over the weekend I think he is the KEY person in this - the person who would worked in the mortgages side of the business in EBS and then in setting up Haven and having the relationship with the Brokers -
he was its seems poached from another mortgage provider for his 'expertise'
- I am thinking Kieran Tansey must know why the Loan offers - like mine lacked so much detail - like a definition of a variable base rate ?
i saw a loan offer given to a person from an ebs branch - same time as i got mine - theirs did not lack the explicit ecb + xx % detail that mine did?
isn't this is the best guy to explain to the committee what went on with these EBS mortgages?
 
Hi haveaniceday, just to let you know ive sent Michael McGrath an email for his info based on the info in youre last posting. Any updates ill keep you posted.
 
tonymac said:
Hi all, just to give an update from.my email enquiries, Michael McGrath got back to me and told me that EBS have been asked to appear before the committee alongside AIB in july. AIB responded by saying they deal with all EBS tracker issues but the committee told them they want EBS to appear alongside AIB so at least thats going to happen and hopefully they'll get loads from the committee.
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AIB/EBS need to write a book about this fiasco entitled “How to make yourself look guilty of a banking coverup.”

Ripping off families, trying to cover their tracks and now being arrogant enough to give the 2 fingers to elected representatives...the height of arrogance really and contempt for customers. EBS being dragged kicking and screaming to the oireachtas committee suggests they are extremely worried about something significant being revealed. It’s so obvious now that AIB have tried everything to hide EBS away like a dirty little secret.

The July committee appearance date will likely result in EBS deciding to own up now and redress the 3000 customers identified by PK and thereby avoid a much more damaging expose OR
they’ll concoct some other dubious explanation about what happened, try to gain Central Bank support and then present that story to the committee. Probably the latter option going by AIB/EBS’ behaviour to date.
 
haveaniceday said:
i saw a loan offer given to a person from an ebs branch - same time as i got mine - theirs did not lack the explicit ecb + xx % detail that mine did?
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Haveaniceday-was this a fixed to variable base loan offer?

EBS mortgage terms and conditions state that the “basis on which the interest rate of the loan is calculated is stated in the offer letter.”
So the interest rate basis is stated in that persons EBS loan offer but not in your EBS loan offer?
 
Yes exactly
and it was not A fixed to variable just a variable and
their one stated Variable ECB Base +x.x %

what I got when i asked for a tracker ( via my broker) was a loan offer that said - variable base rate 5.25%


BTW They did not get this loan in the end - they were told its was no longer available and ended up with a fixed - that was months before the cut off in oct 2008
 
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