What about men?

Vanilla

Frequent Poster
Messages
4,104
When is international men's day?

For those of you who don't know ( and didn't bother to read the entire thread), it's November 19th.

Amazingly, and at this stage, wearily, twitter, facebook and social media in general is full of the usual whataboutery, but when is international men's day...

Let's see how many of you post about that next november. Quite amazing how many men feel the need to post about the necessity for International Women's day though.
 
Last edited:

odyssey06

Frequent Poster
Messages
1,611
When is international men's day?
For those of you who don't know, it's November 19th.
Let's see how many of you post about that. Quite amazing how many men feel the need to post about the necessity for International Women's day though.
Hmm, that's a Tuesday night in November. Fair chance of a Champion's League game or international qualifier.
Number of posts about soccer v International makeyuppy Men's Day will be about 1000-1.
 

Sunny

Frequent Poster
Messages
3,538
When is international men's day?

For those of you who don't know ( and didn't bother to read the entire thread), it's November 19th.

Amazingly, and at this stage, wearily, twitter, facebook and social media in general is full of the usual whataboutery, but when is international men's day...

Let's see how many of you post about that next november. Quite amazing how many men feel the need to post about the necessity for International Women's day though.
I will post about it now. Why wait. International men’s day is as pathetic as international woman’s day. Might as well just be created by hallmark. Friends were travelling today with Aer Lingus abd they boarded women first. Wow. That will change your the world. Why not offer more family friendly rosters to your majority female cabin crew? No we will board women first for one day a year. Look at us. It’s pathetic and most women I have talked to agree. It’s not dealing with the issue. Let’s have international homeless day next. That should really make a difference.
 

Purple

Frequent Poster
Messages
9,066
Quite amazing how many men feel the need to post about the necessity for International Women's day though.
Why shouldn’t men post about it?
My point is that there are massive issues facing women around the world but the myopic whining by comfortable middle class women in rich countries who face no institutional or legal discrimination is distasteful, at the very least.
It’s like someone complaining about missing lunch when outside people are starving.
 

Leper

Frequent Poster
Messages
872
Women are good at womens issues. They are well capable operators. Let those issues to them. Men in grass skirts in womens mini marathons, keep away, please. Women can do without you.
 

Thirsty

Frequent Poster
Messages
2,057
"comfortable middle class women in rich countries who face no institutional or legal discrimination"

Really? Even after the Cork rape trial, you still believe this?

Decades of research into gender pay gap and you still believe this?

Documented cases of women fired for being pregnant, and you still believe this?

I suppose we have no racial or religious discrimination either?
 
Last edited:

odyssey06

Frequent Poster
Messages
1,611
What's the rate of occupational deaths for men versus women in Ireland?
Seems like a far more serious case of discrimination than the alleged gender pay gap which probably doesn't exist for people who joined the work force this century.
 

Thirsty

Frequent Poster
Messages
2,057
Not quite following you. You want more people to die at work?

".. gender pay gap which probably doesn't exist for people who joined the work force this century"

Can you cite the relevant research to support this claim?
 

odyssey06

Frequent Poster
Messages
1,611
Not quite following you. You want more people to die at work?

".. gender pay gap which probably doesn't exist for people who joined the work force this century"

Can you cite the relevant research to support this claim?
Not quite following you. I'll just remind you that you are the one saying things like "You want more people to die."

If women are being discriminated against so badly, how is it that men are ending up in the most dangerous jobs ? And paying for it with their lives, rather than say, smaller pay cheques? Seems like workplace discrmination against men is far worse than against women then?


There is no real gender pay gap, except in (a) impact of historical discrimination \ lack of education, and (b) in the different occupations that men and women freely choose to work in.
One of the biggest studies on gender pay gaps by the US Labour department considered data and 50 peer-reviewed papers and concluded that the pay gap "may almost entirely be the result of individual choices being made by male and female workers".
https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/

And...
"Women aged under 40 earn almost as much as their male counterparts."
https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-pay-gap-ireland-statistics-facts-3133536-Dec2016/

It is an offence under Ireland's legislation to discriminate against women in the workplace. Whatever differences in occupations, salaries, job risk encountered by men and women in 21st century Ireland is not as a result of gender discrimination by employers. And any individual breaches of the law by employers is not impacting those statistics, and if you follow WRC findings, is being dealt with by the law.
Look at the number of WRC cases adjudicated in favour of pregnant women!
 
Last edited:

Thirsty

Frequent Poster
Messages
2,057
@odyssey06 - you suggested that more men than women die in work related incidents, and that was a serious case of discrimination.

It's unclear where you believe the discrimination arises? You can't really wish for the rate of fatal work related incidents for women to rise to that of men?

I agree that work places need to be as safe as they can possibly be, but I believe you are conflating two different things.

It is indeed an offence to discriminate which is why judgements are frequently made against employers who do so. Regrettably, it does not prevent the discrimination from happening; and not all women will even bring a case.

Although I'm a little cyncial about their reasons, diversity and equality being very much of the moment, many large corporates have themselves identified a gender pay gap in their organisations and have set targets to reduce it.

Finally to point out that the phrase pay gap does not encompass just rates of pay; look at the pensions issue back in 2017 as an example.

I always wonder why people argue against equality, or insist that discrimation doesn't really exist.

In truth the only reason we have made any progress is this area is thanks to legislation. Such as the right to vote, the removal of the marriage bar, the equal pay act, equality legislation, and even the right to contraception.

Each one of those Acts was fought over (figuratively, not literally!).

In my view change will only be effective when it's backed by legislation.
 

odyssey06

Frequent Poster
Messages
1,611
@odyssey06 - you suggested that more men than women die in work related incidents, and that was a serious case of discrimination.

It's unclear where you believe the discrimination arises? You can't really wish for the rate of fatal work related incidents for women to rise to that of men?
If you don't think I wish for it, and surely no reasonable genuine person in a debate could, why on earth would you write it?
I have absolutely no idea how anyone could connect up a comment on the differences in fatalities with a wish for the rate of fatal incidents to rise. You are deliberately misunderstanding the arguments.

Do you want men's wages to fall to that of women's? Would that make you happier?
 

Thirsty

Frequent Poster
Messages
2,057
Again, it's unclear where you believe the discrimination arises in regards to workplace safety.

I believe you are conflating two different things.
 

odyssey06

Frequent Poster
Messages
1,611
Again, it's unclear where you believe the discrimination arises in regards to workplace safety.
I believe you are conflating two different things.
Well, if discrimination has nothing to do with workplace safety and there is a difference in the safety statistics between men and women why does discrimination have to be involved with workplace remuneration even if there is a difference in pay between men and women - and it's not clear if there even is a significant difference for those who entered the workplace in the 21st century, as cited above.

We don't have a time machine for those who entered the workforce in the 20th century to turn secretaries, who may have been discriminated against before the setup of institutions such as the WRC, into say highly paid managers. Though I think we should, being cognisant of the legacy debt of such discrmination (not just gender based) ban current employers from seeking details of previous remuneration.

The minister for social protection in 2017 was Regina Doherty. A woman. I don't think what happened with the pensions reflected some anti-woman agenda it was the kind of unfair treatment people can encounter versus a faceless penny pinching uncaring bureaucracy.

I echo Purple's comments, women in 2019 Ireland face no institutional or legal discrmination on account of their gender.
They are positively protected against such discrimination, in fact.
 

Purple

Frequent Poster
Messages
9,066
Again, it's unclear where you believe the discrimination arises in regards to workplace safety.

I believe you are conflating two different things.
It is unclear how the gender pay gap constitutes discrimination rather than choices freely made.
Women under the age of 35 earn more than men. Two thirds of law graduates are women, same in medicine. There are campaigns to get more women into STEM subjects, and rightly so. Where are the campaigns to get more men into medicine and law?
Where are the calls for gender quotas in teaching and nursing? Where is the campaign to make them more male friendly professions?
Maybe free will and free choice must be considered. Maybe equality doesn’t mean we are all the same, just that we are all equal.

If you want to see “discrimination” ask men in small businesses if they feel under pressure not to take paternity leave. It’s hard to legislate for that. I’m sure women find themselves under implied pressure to put work ahead of family too but that’s not discrimination, that’s just work.


The Cork rape trial, is that the one where barrister Elizabeth O'Connell cited the underwear the alleged victim was wearing? It was a disgusting comment to make but how is that discrimination? Disgusting comments are made about women and men all the time.

Of course women are discriminated against but that’s usually because they are poor or vulnerable, not because they are women.
 

cremeegg

Frequent Poster
Messages
3,018
There are campaigns to get more women into STEM subjects, and rightly so.
Awful, heavy handed, nanny knows best, and possibly counterproductive campaigns.

I brought my 12 year old son to the Young Scientist a few years ago. The constant announcements over the PA about how well girls were doing was very intrusive. I wanted to try to interpret this for him, but could not think of a useful way to do so.

My 17 year old daughter says that she will scream the next time she hears that girls can do stem too. She knows that she is one of the 4 or 5 best maths students out of 120 in her year, being told that "girls can too" is demeaning, and answers a question that was never asked.
 

Purple

Frequent Poster
Messages
9,066
Awful, heavy handed, nanny knows best, and possibly counterproductive campaigns.

I brought my 12 year old son to the Young Scientist a few years ago. The constant announcements over the PA about how well girls were doing was very intrusive. I wanted to try to interpret this for him, but could not think of a useful way to do so.

My 17 year old daughter says that she will scream the next time she hears that girls can do stem too. She knows that she is one of the 4 or 5 best maths students out of 120 in her year, being told that "girls can too" is demeaning, and answers a question that was never asked.
I see nothing wrong with challenging gender stereotypes but, as with a worthy advert by a razor company challenging men on the nature of what masculinity it while telling women they are goddess, it is important to retain a balance in these things.
I find most adverts both sexist towards men and patronising towards women. It is understandable that women are targeted as they make most purchasing decisions but why should the narrative of an advert be one person being thick and another educating them in a deeply condescending manner? The same goes for your experience at the young scientist exhibition, it must be possible to encourage without patronising one party while denigrating another.
 

Betsy Og

Frequent Poster
Messages
447
Chrisssht above, what have I missed here.

For the record I have always been in possession of cojones, though Vanilla had a go at removing them on this very thread !!! :eek:;) They have been disconnected in recent years but I'm not sure that's relevant to this discussion, or maybe I've lost something but havent realised it yet :D

For the zillionth time, it was the name of a backpacker car in Australia, about 16 years ago at this stage - ...... if I had my time back........
 

Purple

Frequent Poster
Messages
9,066
Really? Even after the Cork rape trial, you still believe this?
I’ve answered that one, but to reiterate; it was a woman who made that comment and she was castigated for it.

Decades of research into gender pay gap and you still believe this?
Have you actually read any of the research? If so you must agree that it is not based on discrimination but rather choices freely made.

Documented cases of women fired for being pregnant, and you still believe this?
Again, this is against the law and any employer who does it will be penalised.

I suppose we have no racial or religious discrimination either?
Of course we do, we also have discrimination against LGBT people, members of the Travelling community and against people with the wrong accent in the wrong place (strong Dublin accent in many jobs, any Dublin accent in Cork etc). People have biases and there is such thing as male privilege but there is also such thing as female privilege. This woman writes very well on the subjust and as a lesbian and a feminist who lived as a man for a year and a half she is qualified from both sides.

The grass isn’t always greener and it is harder to see where we have privilege than to see where we are disadvantaged.

How many times have you heard a woman say that she doesn’t allow her husband to do something, be it going to the pub or play golf or whatever? When a woman does that she is exerting an inappropriate level of control and is the abuser in an abusive relationship. No person should have that level or control over their partner and anyone who thinks that’s okay should take a long hard look at themselves. If your friend or family member talks about their partner like that you have a duty to call them out on it, no matter what the gender mix in their relationship is. I think most men would call out their peers if they treated a woman like that. Can the same be said for women?
 
Last edited:
Top