War On Terror

Islam and ElCid

I don't beleive in gods and religions of any sort but I don't disrespect anyone like you and some others (maybe it is still you with all sorts of names) that have been posting, nor I support OBL or any terrorism or loss of civilian lives. US not only supported Saddam and OBL, they have also supported Venezuela's corrupt leader and took him down when they didn't like him. Guess what , he is back in power and probably be invaded by US when they finish with Iraq. One thing they have common is oil=$$$ for your pocket.

Now tell me, do you think your world is safer? Your war with terrorism caused more terrorism and killed many many more civilians. It is obvious you don't care about people is getting killed everyday in Afghanistan and Iraq. Maybe they are not human for you because they beleive in different god than you do and they live different.

To me war with terrorism is not and probably will not be won because you don't even know who you are fighting with unlike going and attacking a nation. Look at the state of US now? they have lost their biggest and greatest fruit of Democracy which is freedom of movement, OBL probably scared them more than Russia did in cold war and probably first time in their history they don't feel safe on their homelands. Who to blame? No one but themselves and their politics, nothing to do with Islam or muslims. This is where you got the wrong end of the stick and totaly blinded. If Afghanistan ended in Talabans ends and fundamentalists this was another work of art from US to our world. They backed them up including OBL when Afghanistan was in war with Russia for decades and war over they didn't want to know. Left these people in a country of ruins which open the grounds for terrorists.

Makes me wonder with your attitude how did you survive ME? why did you go there (if you did) if you don't like these people? I have been in many places in ME and i have never seen any friendly people as them. If you respect someone for what they are they respect you for what you are.

For crusades, read the history again. They were a total failiure and your own fellow Christians were killed by your crusaders too. They were nothing more than pillagers, rapers and murderers. I am sure they wouldn't put that in your books.

P.S before criticize my spelling, check your own.
 
To Paul

I think you should take your head out of the sand get your facts. US has been paying Israel for decades, how better they are than Saddam? What does Israel do with the money? How do you think they build their army and what are they using it for? There are millions of Palestinians left homeless and living like rats in refugee camps because of Israel policy of land grabbing and forcing these people to leave their homelands so that they can bring the jews in. It is law in so called Israeli Democracy that any jew in the world can move to Israel and if they do they are given houses and lands also have rights to Israeli Passports and palestinians gets kicked out to make place for these people.

Maybe you support these sort of terrorism? What is the difference you tell me, because I don't see any.
 
antiElCid

Your views on the Crusades are of course dictated by your own beliefs and prejudices.

Answer me this...how did Moorish muslms come to rule most of Spain in the 13th - 14th century? How did they 'displace' the native Spanish people?

How did the Ottoman armies lay seige to Vienna in the 17th century (a long time after the Crusades ended)?

How did The Prophet Muhammed spread Islam throughout the Arabian peninsula and beyond in 650AD?

The answer to these questions is simple...BY FORCE OF ARMS.
Don't speak to me about the Crusades without speaking about the Jihadis of Islam. It is not a peaceful religion, but one with a bloody history, and it was revealed and led by a warrior from day 1.

The Israelis are totally wrong in what they've done to the Palestinian people, but I note that the neighbouring Arab countries have all refused to accept Palestinian refugees! They've had little help from their brother Arabs except weapons to kill Jews with, and money to pay for suicide bombings on Jews.

OBL was certainly supported by America. So was Saddam. It suited American foreign policy for a while. Unfortunately America has had little or no true understanding of Islamic fundamentalism until 9-11. I think they understand better now.

While there is no doubt that part of the reason for the interference in the ME is Oil, it is not a quetion of $$ as you say. It is much more serious than that. Oil is the driving force behind the world economy and unstable countries in the ME cannot be allowed to have a stranglehold on the worlds oil supplies. Westerners who bleat about American foreign policy would be the first to start squealing if the Islamists got control and turned off their lights and central heating in mid winter.
Its comforting to be able to protest about Americas bad policies while knowing you'll be able to go back to your nice warm comfy home after the march, make a cup of tea and watch yourself being self righteous on TV.
 
Crusades to save Christianity blaaaaaaa

Your views on the Crusades are nothing more than a comic book story. Read some here www.medievalcrusades.com/...sbegin.htm and do some more search. They have killed more Christians and Jews than they did muslims. It wasn't Muslim pillage the Constantinople Byzantium, it was your crusaders whom killed many christians in the city. In the course of history many empires came and gone, nothing to do with religion. If you read your medieval history you will also find that muslims brought many advantages to europe by means of science and technology of the time. Muslims never sent missionaries to convert people like christians did. Most of European nations that took control of nations in America, Africa and Asia weren't muslims were they nor they were angels.

As for Ottomans, many of nations in Balkans joined the empire without wars escaping from christian brutality and you should be also thankful that they did lay siege on Vienna or else most of Europe would have been catholic or protestan now as those times catholics and protestants were no friends either.

Islam is not much more bloody than Christianity, It wasn't muslims that started WW 1 and Hitler wasn't muslim, nor Mussolini nor Lenin, nor Stalin nor Bush. It wasn't muslims that wiped out Incas and American Natives, it wasn't muslims that killed 10s of millions of people in 2 World wars, it wasn't muslim that slaved Africa so what are you talking about?

At least we agree on one thing so far so good. Yes not only America but the world is starting to understand Islamic fundamentalism but what questinable is the way the all thing is handled. We all backed up the idea of going Afghanistan and wiping out the terrorist camps but using Iraq for war on terrorism was wrong and just opened another front to the terrorists. Not all people fighting Iraq are Iraqis.

As for Israel, it was not that Arab countries refused palestinians, it was palestinians that did not want to leave, after all if they have left they would have no chance of going back and why should they leave their homes because of Israel's one sided policies? 80% of Israeli jews are from different parts of the world. Displacing people to replace with others is an ethnic cleansing. Not all palestinians in refugee camps are muslims either, there are christians too. I recommend that you should go Israel and if you are not a jew or look like a jew you will see that at the airport all the jews will be walking without checks and you with other non jews will be questioned for hours, regardless if you are muslim or christian. Go see yourself, not a pleasant experience. Took me 6 hours to pass the Taba border while hundreds just walked by and few other with me left waiting and questined even though I was in Israel before. I understand security but being racist is another thing.

Oil oil black gold. Sorry but it is not a question of anything else other than $$$s and politics and elections. Why do we pay double the price the US pays for oil? Why does Americans need to go around V6s and V8s and we go around 1Lt shopping trolleys? Sorry but they are wasting the world resources and adding extra $ on oil prices is loosing an election there. Also countries in ME are not unstable, that is what you think and if they are it is us that making them so. As I said earlier we should learn to trade peacefully without interfering with these people's lives. If they live like that so let them, it is none of our bussiness how they live or want to live. If they don't want democracy so what? Let them rule themselves as it suits them and as it suits their beleives. If you think you are saving the people there before you do so look around the world and see other brutal regimes too and not all are muslims either.
 
Iraq wtc

I think antiEICid has a very warped and dangerous view of history and politics. Along with his / her numerous grammar and spelling mistakes , it points to the conclusion that he / she is indeed from a Muslim background , despite what he or she may say to the opposite. Let us say that antiEICid is male. I cannot believe he is a native English speaker.

He says Israel is supported financially / paid by America , and uses this as justification for neighbouring Arab states to pay for suicide bombers in Israel. Well, Ireland is supported financially by America ( what would our economy be like if it was not for all the American factories here etc etc ) ..... does that justify a jihad against non-Muslims here ? Israel is a democracy, unlike its Muslim neighbours. If it is so bad, why do the Palestinians not go to their Arab neighbours?

He says why do we pay double the price consumers in the US pay for oil ? It is mainly because of taxes in Europe, old chap. I dread to think the price we in the west would all pay for oil if Bin Laden and his comrades got control of the middle east oil reserves.

AntiEICid is correct in one thing, though. Not all brutal regimes in the world were / are muslim. He is correct when he says Hitler and Mussolini were not Muslim. They were catholic. However, I think it fair to say that the most democratic countries in the world today are not Muslim ; and many Muslim countries are not very democratic, industrious or prosperous. If it were not for oil I do not know where they would be. I do not care what Muslims do, as long as they do not come and interfere in our western lives / society.
 
Oil=$$$=innocent lives

Paul, I am not going to use the spelling check for you and I can assure you my spelling is far better than yours, you can check my spellings and you will see that most of the errors are not using capitals in words like "muslims". I am not a native English speaker, there are other languages in the world too you know. Unless you think only native English speakers have rights to speak in Ireland. Otherwise excuse my grammar and spelling while keeping your stupid conclusions to yourself. My background is catholic and a very strict one but I do not believe it by my own choice. Even if it was Muslim background what different it makes. Most of my debates are against hating people because of their religions and using religion to brainwash people so they can have comments like yours and ElCid's. You too sound no better than OBL and his pals. It happens in every religion, regardless you are muslim, christian or jew.

When did Palestinians have a jihad against non-muslims here or anywhere? Are IRA or ETA muslims? They have been around longer than any other terrorists. Why doesn't catholics leave NI and move here? How would you like to see UK driving catholics out and bringing in more protestants to NI? In your logic you can find this acceptable too, if not why is Palestinians any different to you? You tell me now, why should Palestinians leave their homes to make room to other people that Israel wants to move in? If I walk in your house and throw you out leave you with nothing, would you like it? would you just walk away?

Muslims did not come and interfere with your lives / society, it is you that trying to control them. As I said maybe they don't want to be democratic, industrious or prosperous maybe they are happy as they are. And it is none of our business if they don't want to live like us, why is it so hard for you to accept this and get on with your life?

As for your oil debate, what if you pi$$ off all of ME and they turn against you? This is what my debate is about, if you don't like them for what they are one day they will turn around and tell you to f off. Its their oil, they don't have to sell it to you, but sorry my mistake they do have to sell it to you or else west will come and get you. We can always invade Saudi Arabia with using War on Terrorism excuse or invade Iran because they are fundamentalist and don't like us and list goes on. You like it or not they will make any excuse to fill their pockets and keep your car going.
 
Paul

You have got to be THE most stupid poster who's ever bothered to post on this topic.


Go read what people have said. You're an Idiot!
 
Re: Iraq etc

Paul,

and the likes of antiEICid and piggy are just extreme muslims, or muslim fanatic travellers

I am not a muslim. I have stated this in this post already if you'd care to read it.

What on earth is a "muslim fanatic traveller"? Is this some made up term you've penned yourself? Please enlighten us all as to what it means.

Why does piggy and her head in the sand friends keep trying to tell us black is white ? I am sure during WW2
you would have being telling us Germany was right, simply because the UK and US were fighting it.


As already stated I'm a man Paul. If you'd actually bothered to read this post you'd have discovered that.

No...I doubt I would've told anyone that Hitler was right. Bit of a difference mind you between World War 2 and Iraq.

Anyway, whenver you've 'come down' from those XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX you've been taking you might read the post. It's not that hard really. You read the first word, followed by the next word and then the next. You get the idea. While you're reading each word try your best to remember the previous ones too. That way you eventually build up some idea about what people are saying. If that's too difficult for you I can record my voice on a tape and send it to you via post.

Now, please feel free to rant like a luny and make absolutely no sense. Sure if it didn't make a difference up 'til now why should it matter eh?
 
Iraq

Well, AntiEICid / RonanMoore ( perhaps you are one and the same ? ) I think some of what you say is correct but much of your reasoning and analogies are incorrect.

You ask when did Palestinians have a jihad ? Have not the leaders of some Palestinian groups orders suicide bombers to destroy Israel, and do many / most Palestinians want the destruction of Israel. Who was it that wanted all Jews pushed back in to the sea? Do you hate the Jews too because you are a Catholic ? I do not hate the Jews, or Catholics, or any religion, but you have the neck to accuse me of being no better than OBL ( Bin Laden presumably ) and his friends. I do not have to take this insult from a non-national. I did not insult you in your posts, and I expected the same courtesy in return.

Regarding spellings, even if you cannot spell, run a spell check and you will see who is correct. It will not correct grammar though.

You ask are IRA or ETA Muslims ? What difference does it make. I am not a member of either IRA or ETA, and I am not an admirer of either group either - far from it. The UVF are not Muslims. The Mafia are not Muslims. So what?

You ask why do Catholics not leave Northern Ireland and move here ? ( South of the border ). If you do not know that, if you cannot understand that, I think you have not much experience of Northern Ireland my friend.
I have many friends in Northern Ireland from both traditions there. Many Catholics I know there wish to remain part of the UK. A few I know have gone to live in England, most continue to work in N.I. and get on well with their Protestant neighbours and friends.

I am afraid you have a totally one sided view of Israel , to such an extent that I really feel sorry for you. It is not me who hates other races, but you.

You say Muslims did not come and interfere with your lives / society. What about 9/11, Bali and the other numerous attacks? What about the mass migration that is changing our societies in the west? Are there not 2 million Muslims in the UK now ? If they do not like our society , why do they come and live here ?
When our wives and children are being blown up by cowardly suicide bombers, is it not time for some thought on the subject ?
 
Paul

Perhaps you're ELCid/Zeus.

You're an unregistere user. How do we know you're not all the one person?
 
Iraq

RonanMoore, I am an unregistered user, not an unregistere user. The fact that you can hardly put a long word together, never mind a few sensible sentences, lead me to the conclusion that you are probably antiEICid. I can assure you I am the one and only Paul. I have no need to hide behind other identities. And even if I did , so what? If you do not like my argument , do you want to cut off my tongue or stone me to death ? I am glad to live in a country where there is free speech , unlike many Islamic countries.
 
re

Well, I'm glad to hear you're the one and only paul...

Yes Paul...I want to stone you to death!! Everybody who thinks that the war on terror is a farce or that the occupation of Iraq is wrong wants to stone you and your catholic buddies to death.

"You're either with us or against us".

[Edited ...

Please abide by the posing guidelines:

Please be civil - avoid causing offence:

Controversy and argument are welcome. But please keep your comments civil. Attack an opinion by all means, but please don't attack the person expressing the opinion
Thanks, Marion]
 
re

I might have left a letter off the end of a word paul but what's a muslim fanatic traveller?

At least I don't make s**t up.
 
Marion's edit

It's called sarcasm and irony. Paul was the one who brought up the subject. I was talking 'bout what we know the American's are at.
 
unregistered users

Paul. People use multiple personas to back up their arguments all the time.

It's easy. I reckon you're Zeus for sure.
 
Paul's views

Oh and before you go falsely accusing other posters of being Muclim fanatic travellers (I know still makes no sense sure it doesn't...no matter how many times you say it) take a look at your own beliefs.

You believe that America are protecting themselves against terror. They created it in the first place. They create Osama. They created Saddam. They armed Saddam when it suited them and turned a blind eye to what they knew he was doing...just like they turn a blind eye to what Israel are doing today. Get real. It's about power. It's about colonialism, not democracy.
 
typos

And before you point them out, yes...there's a few typos in my post. I can't edit it.
 
Facts and Myths about Islam

AntiCid:
Your views on the Crusades are nothing more than a comic book story. Read some here www.medievalcrusades.com/...sbegin.htm and do some more search.

I followed your link, and about half way down the page I read the following regarding religious persecution by Crusaders: Let it be noted that the Church did not condone this. Bishops locally preached against this, and some were attacked for their preaching. The Bishop of Spier saved many lives, but at Worms the Bishop was driven from his home and the Jews he sheltered were slaughtered.

Now, compare this to the modern approach of the Mullahs and Ayatollahs who preach a doctrine of hatred and terrorism. You'll have heard of Abu Hamza, the Imam at Finnsbury mosque in London who encourages his supporters to murder westerners. Also you'll have heard how Muqtada Al Sadr in Iraq has told his followers to capture female westerners and take them as slaves! Now there's a modern thinker.

When I worked in Saudi Arabia we soon learned to avoid walking the streets after Friday prayers because the anti western hatred would be at its worst then. The worshipers leaving the mosques would be whipped up into a frenzy of hatred by their 'religious leaders' sermons.

Speaking of Saudia by the way...you mention Islamic tolerance and friendliness, and respect for others beliefs. Please explain why it is that muslims are allowed to practice their religion in the West, and yet in the 'tolerant' heartland of Islam the Saudis ban Bibles, Churches, Crucifixes, and any form of Christian worship. Punishable by imprisonment and physical abuse.

You say in an earlier post that you "don't beleive in gods and religions of any sort". Perhaps if you had some beliefs you could understand better the difference between modern Christianity and Islam. Christianity is a religion founded on the teachings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately. He said, when someone strikes you on the cheek...you turn the other cheek to them. In other words a religion of peace and humility.
If so called 'Christians' fail to follow the teachings of their church then they are no longer fit to call themselves Christian. A Christian is one who follows Christs teachings!

On the other hand, the Koran states clearly, time and again, if a muslim is attacked in that manner then it is his duty to KILL the agressor. In other words, a religion that preaches intolerance and arrogance.

This difference is important because it forms the very basis on which OBL and his followers build the case for their Jihad.

If you read your medieval history you will also find that muslims brought many advantages to europe by means of science and technology of the time.

This is another great myth. It is true that medieval muslims had some great scholars, but it is widely recognised by historians that their knowledge came from their studies of ancient Greek scholars. There was little, (if any) original thinking. One can still see this fundamental flaw in Islamic society when you observe how, even given all the wealth of their oil rich lands, the Saudis (and many other Islamic states) have not got the technical expertise to run their economies without the help of western or asian workers and technicians. Which Islamic state is recognised worldwide for technical innovation or advancement? What great scientific discoveries have the muslims made in the last hundred years? Your Islamic Universities are not places of learning...but places of brainwashing...the main study is how to memorise the Koran word for word!

Muslims never sent missionaries to convert people like christians did.

Wrong. The 'prophet' muhammed converted the whole Saudi peninsula to his new religion by force of arms.
Heres a little history:

<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

I don't quite understand this passage, but if you are suggesting europe was better off for the invasion by Islam I think you must be joking. Or insane.
It's also worth mentioning that, as far as contributions to european society are concerned, the year 1492 was the year the Christian king and queen Ferdinand and Isabella finally expelled the Moorish muslims from Spain, and it was that same year that the king and queen bank rolled a certain 'Christopher Columbus' to sail off in search of new lands to the west.
He discovered America! Great timing!!

As for Israel, it was not that Arab countries refused palestinians, it was palestinians that did not want to leave,

The Swedish foreign ministry carried out a documented study into the Palestinian refugee problem in 2000.
What did they find?
Which country excludes Palestinians from social services, bars them from the right to work or to start up their own businesses, closes professions to them, prevents them from owning property without special permission, bars them from receiving travel papers, forbids them from entering state schools and greatly limits the possibility of receiving hospital treatment?
Is it Israel?
No - it's Lebanon.
All Arab countries except Jordan have refused to grant Palestinians citizenship, including first and second-generation children in the new country. In addition, Syria bars Palestinians from owning agricultural land, while freedom of movement is restricted and political rights limited. In Egypt, Palestinians have difficulties obtaining travel documents and work permits.
Kuwait carried out ethnic cleansing of Palestinians,expelling 350,000 in 1991,
while Libya got rid of 20,000 in 1995.

Meanwhile the Arabs blame 'The West' for the Palestinians situation.


Sorry to say, but that seems normal given the fact that Palestinians are prone to blowing themselves up in public places! Go to any airport in the US or Europe and you'll see everyone treated with suspicion on the same level...thanks to Islamic terrorism.

Finally, regarding Oil again.
America has left Saudia alone to run its own business for many years now, and what resulted? A bunch of playboy tyrants who robbed their own people of their wealth but fed them a diet of anti western hatred and Islamic fundamentalism...which is now backfiring on them.
What will replace the House of Saud if America stays out of Arabia and lets OBL win his victory in Saudia? You know very well...a fundamentalist, west hating regime with OBL at its head. Maybe OBL likes money and power as much as you think we westerners do! And when he has control of the Saudi oil fields and his grip around the balls and throat of the western world...you think he won't start to squeeze? HARD!?
Wise up.
 
War on Terror goes on

Yes ElCid Christianity is a religion founded on the teachings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately and one of the ten commandments is Thou Shall not Kill, yet Christianity killed many more than any other religion did and still continues to kill. Talking about how barbaric Muslims are, you should also look what is Christians doing and decide. Most countries in ME are sanctioned by West and left to their own fates with the loss of many lives and you expect them to believe you? West is quick enough to sanction Iraq and Syria from rubbish claims and yet they can not do the same for Israel while they continue their ethnic cleansing. These people are not stupid to see your ambitions and double standards. That is where the brainwashing comes which leads to terrorism because you create the reasons for them and turn your back ignoring actual facts while trying to twist on the truths and cause more hate in both societies. Jews in Israel are just as brainwashed as Palestinians there and sadly some Christians are just as brainwashed as Muslims.

As for Muslim missionaries, why don't you read the other side of the story instead of gathering your facts from Christian media? Of course they will make their own stories so will Muslims. Islam wasn't accepted and was a threat to many empires and leaders of the tribes in the Arab peninsula, just like This post will be deleted if not edited immediately wasn't accepted by people of the time. You have to choice, get slaughtered or fight back? Do you also know that the rulers of Mecca tried to kill Muhammad and his followers many times, do you also know that they were chased all the way to kingdom of Ethiopia where Ethiopian king of time refused the hand them to Meccans after he heard about Holy Mother Mary from one of the Muhammad's followers from Koran? If you think Islam was so cruel, how did so many churches and synagogue are still standing after hundreds of years? Go to Balkans and count how many mosques you will find after 500-600 years of Ottoman rule. Also when your great Christian Spaniards were killing and torturing many Jews and gypsies it was Ottomans that open their arms to these people. There were many Jews and Christians in the Ottoman government for many centuries. Don't be blinded with one sided stories, look around and you will see many conflicts, no one know to truth. If we did we wouldn't be discussing it here.

How nice of Columbus found America to slaughter millions in the name of Christianity and greed. Before Columbus and knew where he was Piri Reis (An Ottoman Turk Sailor) had a map of Americas www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm 1513. You can guess how long it would have taken to draw that map with the conditions hand hard sailing of those years. I guess western media would not like to know this fact either.

As for me not believing religions or simply put being Atheist doesn't stop me reading about religions. It is better to not take any sides, believe me makes you understand better. We are all humans after all.

Finally, since the topic is about War with terrorism and seeing all the recent events in Saudi Arabia, Iraq and other places do you still think you are winning this war? To me it looks like west is creating more terrorists than there was before. I am sure Iraqis and Saudis are blaming the terrorism to West now. As I said before all West did was to open more loopholes for terrorist to exploit and we are yet to see how these loopholes will be closed. You go and invade Iraq and OBL goes and brainwashes many more people with ideas of West is after their oil and recruits more. So who is winning?

Isn't boards great and educational
Have a nice peaceful day all.
 
To Paul

Paul, it is not me accusing you and if I did I apologise, it was you going around accusing people of being Muslim terrorists or fanatic travellers. Looks like anyone doesn't agree with you are terrorists.

If you can understand the situation in North so well why is it hard to understand the situation in Israel? I have asked you if UK did remove the Catholics from their homes in North and move something like 2-3 million Protestants by taking their homes, lands and maybe killing your parents, brothers, sisters and friends while puts you behind walls and leave you with no control of anything, do you accept that? Unfortunately this is what's going on in Israel. No one likes to see people getting blown up by suicide bombers but do you enjoy seeing 13 year old kids being taken down by snipers or missiles thrown into crowds blowing few people up?