War On Terror

Piggy has his/her day in the sun

It was a complement, Piggy. Let's face it if Iraqis were now happily engaging in a Westerm style election and the first buds of normalcy and prosperity were showing in this "beacon of democracy", as we were promised, I would be the first to let you know how wrong you were.

Instead, I am left with a very bad taste in my mouth. I'm not about to emigrate to Libya or Iran, our Western society is still the best, but it is the best of a very bad lot.

Yes, we are free and very prosperous but we are arrogant, selfish and morally defective (as a society).

To be fair to myself I always thought there was something unsavoury about Dubya but Tony Blair, I find that hard to take.:eek

I have also become a conspiracy theorist. Were those DM pictures really fake? If so, was it all a ruse by the Establishment to scare the pants off the Press pursuing the real thing? Did David Kelly, nearing retirement with nothing to lose, really slash his own wrists? Surely if he was that sensitive he wouldn't have dared do what he did in the first place.
 
Re: muslim

"Zeus is correct about Muslim countries. Piggy has not a clue about what she talks about. She is a muslim terrorist sympathiser."

:lol Yes...I'm not only a Muslim terrorist sympathiser, I am in fact Osama Bin Laden. I'm so bored in this damn cave. You...yes, you over there. Bring me that dead goat. I'm hungry...now where was I...

"It was a complement, Piggy. Let's face it if Iraqis were now happily engaging in a Westerm style election and the first buds of normalcy and prosperity were showing in this "beacon of democracy", as we were promised, I would be the first to let you know how wrong you were."

If and when Iraq becomes a fully fledged democracy I will be very, very happy YD. Genuinely I will. By the way, YD stands for Yankee Doodle doesn't it? ;)
However, even if the violence on our TV screens was over that would not have made this war okay in my books.

Anyway, enough said for the moment. The sun is out and I'm feeling very cramped in this cave.
 
Sing to the tune of Yankee Doodle Dandee

I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandee, born on the 4th of July,

Really thought that we were right to invade Iraq, do or die,

I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandee, wish that that my President didn't lie

I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandee, what's happened in Iraq has made me cry
 
Re: Piggy has his/her day in the sun

"To be fair to myself I always thought there was something unsavoury about Dubya but Tony Blair, I find that hard to take"

That's because Tony Blair is a wonderful, wonderful actor. I no more believe that Tony thinks this is all about the people of Iraq than I believe George Bush.

"Were those DM pictures really fake? If so, was it all a ruse by the Establishment to scare the pants off the Press pursuing the real thing?"

I reckon so, yes. I doubt that the second part is true. This is not the kind of publicity they want.

"Did David Kelly, nearing retirement with nothing to lose, really slash his own wrists? Surely if he was that sensitive he wouldn't have dared do what he did in the first place."

I don't think we'll ever really know for sure.
 
Bush misses the plot again

Bush has announced that he is going to destroy that prison (can't spell it`, sorry).

It wasn't the prison which committed the war crimes.
 
The prison

Bush has announced that he is going to destroy that prison (can't spell it`, sorry).
don't worry, he couldn't pronounce it!
To be fair the invasion/liberation of Iraq must be judged on it's own merits. The excesses of the military or CIA or whoever, while to be condemned, are of no relevance to the rights or wrongs of the war in and of itself. If it is wrong it is wrong, if it is right it is right. The actions of the troops on the ground do not effect this issue.
 
Re: The prison

At the end of the day history will judge the Iraqi situation.
I for one think that this war was justified - with or without the
discovery of WMDs.
 
Re: The prison

History is already beginning to judge it TB. You're not keeping up to date with news, general opinion around the world. History will remember it in much the same way as Vietnam is viewed...maybe worse though.

You may have supported it True Blue...but then your views are extreme right wing.
 
Iraq

Rubbish, piggy. You do not have to be extreme right wing to see the correctness in displacing Saddam Hussein. I am not saying that everying that every single american does is correct - how could it be - but American and British democracy is a hell of a lot better than Saddams version of democracy. Would you , Piggy, like to have been one of Saddams torture victims - then you would know what real torture is.
 
Re: Iraq

Yeah, you're probably right P. Saddam's torture techniques were slightly superior to the Americans.

And of course, by that logic...there's a lot of bad governments in the world aren't there. Let's invade them all - one by one. That'll solve all our problems.
 
If you call Saddams torture techniques superior to the Americans ...... do you approve of the torture techniques , public hangings and gross intimidation used by Saddam Hussein and his followers ? Most Americans treated their captives fairly. The few bad apples in the american military did not stoop to the barbarity that the Iraquis did in an official capacity, and these handful of americans are being / will be court marshalled / punished.
 
If you call Saddams torture techniques superior to the Americans ...... do you approve of the torture techniques , public hangings and gross intimidation used by Saddam Hussein and his followers ?
In case you hadn't noticed I'm playing devil's advocate :\

Most Americans treated their captives fairly. The few bad apples in the american military did not stoop to the barbarity that the Iraquis did in an official capacity, and these handful of americans are being / will be court marshalled / punished.
The above statement is merely your opinion, pieced together with what little media reports have come out about this situation so far.

Personally, with detention camps like Guantanemo and the goings on there (under the full knowledge of the current American regime) I think it's naive to believe, to say the least, that the head honchos within Bush's government weren't calling the shots in Iraqi prisons.

But then if you believe the spin behind this war in the first place (that it was just or had anything to do with WMD or freeing the Iraqi's) then I suppose you'll believe whatever is presented to you.
 
I'm with piggy all the way on this one.

I never saw (even) a Republican President (or "Governor", if you follow Michael Moore's line) — or his administration — fork up so badly as this one.

I say the guy is gone, next election... (but what/who will replace him, I hear you cry? Who gives a damn, frankly...!)

I just wish our own "government" weren't bending over quite so obsequiously to kiss his hairy yellow and allow him in to Dromoland Castle for his 12-hour pre-election photo-op. We've already rendered the notion of Irish "neutrality" completely meaningless — do we really need to stoop to this level?

Burn in hell, George...

Dr. M.
 
You can not bring democracy the way you have it here to Middle East, they don't want it. If they did they all would have opened their arms to you. West shouldn't be interfering with their way of living. If you don't like the way Muslims live that is your problem but as Purple put few posts ago Ottomans survived up until 17th century where the western hungry powers like UK and France start poking in their politics and start to divide the empire with their influence. There were almost every religion in the empire and keeping happy all these people for centuries couldn't have been an easy task. Ottomans didn't conquer with wars or force all the time, there were many regions that just joined the empire while escaping from ruthless Christianity in Europe, you can check your history book for the dark ages of Europe too. 18th century empire was divided for centuries and Ottoman Turks had to fight to British and other western powers in Middle East with the lost of millions of soldiers, they have lost when the arabs turned their back to them and went under British rule that messed up the region further.
Before anyone criticise Islam, should learn their own religion whatever that you beleive. And don't forget it is you that trying to interfere with their lives not other way around and of course you will get opposition whom you will call terrorists. It's all about greed nothing more to it. Doesn't matter if 10s of thousands die so that you can live your greedy lives.
War with terrorism my @ss, someone tell me how many terrorists caught or killed since war with terrorism started and also tell me how many civilians killed by the terrorists that trying to stop terrorism?
 
[This posting is a bit long, but at the bottom I've posted links to back up claims made. I'd appreciate any reasoned response or counter-argument.]

The invasion of Iraq was first presented to the public as necessary because the Ba'athist regime was supporting Al-Queda [1]. This was subsequently stated (by Colin Powell [2.1])to be a claim completely without foundation, and in fact the opposite may be true [2.2].

It was then justified as necessary in order to eliminate the threat from "Weapons of Mass Destruction" [3]. WMD of any significance have not been found in Iraq, despite over a year of searching [4]. Initial claims that Iraq was building a nuclear bomb have also been proven false [5]. After a decade of UN sanctions, only the intellectually dishonest could claim that Iraq posed a military threat to any nation.

On March 23rd 2003, the invasion commenced, and was predictably successful from a military perspective.

The justifications given before the war had however been proven by facts to be untenable, so the story changed again. The invasion of Iraq was now presented as necessary to remove a tyrant who oppressed his own people. But this repositioning leaves us with the troubling question - with all the oppressive regimes out there (North Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe, China, etc) why was Iraq in particular chosen? Why did the US support Saddam before the first Gulf War, when his atrocities were well known?[6] And why in the Spring of 2003, when a significant majority of the world's nations were pleading for restraint and a multilateral solution, did the US and the UK decide to press ahead with their invasion regardless?

And so today, in the Spring of 2004, we see the unsurprising result - a country on the verge of civil war, atrocity after atrocity, and US and British soldiers being killed on the streets of Iraq.

So, what has happened? Some facts are clear - the invasion of Iraq had been a goal of several members of the Republican Administration long before the election of George W Bush [7]. Their agenda (the U.S. being the relatively open society that it is) is not secret - it had been public for several years in a series of open and signed letters from the political pressure group "Project for the New American Century" [8]. Members included Cheney, Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Wolfowitz, Perle, Kagen, Kristol – much of the current US Administration effectively [9]. There's no conspiracy – the signatures are there, out in the open - these people are intelligent, reasoned, and believe their politics best serve the interests of their country.

In the hours and days after 9/11 both Bush and Cheney [10] were searching for ways to link the attacks to Iraq, despite knowing that the most likely perpetrators were Al-Queda.

What motivates this political class in Washington? Why would they take these actions? What do they wish to gain?

Several things - principally a stable alternative source of Middle East oil as leverage against the Saudis [11]. Also insurance in the event the Saudi royal family should be toppled and whatever fundamentalist regime takes over attempts to replay the oil crisis of the late 70s. A motivation to protect the state of Israel, and also provide it with a source of water [12]. Mostly however, they just believe in a more muscular US foreign policy - with military might a factor greater than any other on the globe, why should they not use military force to further their national interest? It’s a war-mongering view we’re no longer used to hearing from western politicians, but it’s clear and open.

One thing must be clear, however, the invasion of Iraq had:
+ Nothing to do with links to Al-Queda - there was no link of any consequence.
+ Nothing to do with WMD - there weren't any of consequence.
+ Nothing to do with liberating the Iraqi people - who could seriously claim the invasion was a humanitarian intervention?

Partisans from the left claim Bush is stupid, evil, or both. This is patently false - despite his stutters he's not a stupid man, and he believes his actions best serve his country. Partisans from the right claim that the invasion of Iraq was morally justified as it removed Saddam. Most fail to see the real reasons behind the invasion – it’s easier and simpler to trust the government, believe we are the superior heroes, and think that a bad man is now in jail. Saddam's removal was a welcome result, but the real consequences of the decision to invade - thousands of civilian deaths, an increase in terrorism, international political division - have far outweighed any positives from this immoral invasion.

The bigger the lie, the easier it is to sell. I just pray that this group is voted out in November – these are dark, dark days.

-- James

[1] Remarks to the United Nations Security Council Secretary Colin L. Powell. New York City February 5, 2003
[2.1] Powell Admits No Hard Proof in Linking Iraq to Al Qaeda
[2.2] BBC - Saddam 'wary of jihad fighters'
[3] [broken link removed]
[4] [broken link removed]
[5] CNN March 14, 2003
[6] National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82
[7] PNAC Rebuilding America’s Defenses – 1997
[8] Project for the New American Century
[9] PNAC Membership
[10] Ron Suskind “The Price of Loyalty: George W. Bush, the White House and the Education of Paul O'Neill”
[11] [broken link removed]
[12] BBC Report on Middle East Water scarcity
 
Islam, History and Democracy

You can not bring democracy the way you have it here to Middle East, they don't want it. If they did they all would have opened their arms to you. West shouldn't be interfering with their way of living.

Absolutely correct. Islam is incompatible with democracy. Muslims are not ashamed of this, but very proud to say it. NO to democracy.

If you don't like the way Muslims live that is your problem but as Purple put few posts ago Ottomans survived up until 17th century where the western hungry powers like UK and France start poking in their politics and start to divide the empire with their influence.

Not quite true.
The Ottoman empire started to crumble from the end of the 17th century when they were defeated at the siege of Vienna, which was a war of Islamic conquest that they pursued. The Ottoman empire was a brutal regime and crumbled easily by itself. The fact that western powers came in to carve it up afterward was a natural result of the vacuum that was left behind.

There were almost every religion in the empire and keeping happy all these people for centuries couldn't have been an easy task.

Rubbish. Force was used.

Ottomans didn't conquer with wars or force all the time, there were many regions that just joined the empire while escaping from ruthless Christianity in Europe,

Example please?

you can check your history book for the dark ages of Europe too.

Actually the Dark Ages in europe arrived soon after the fall of the Roman Empire. As Romes power wained barbarian hordes overran most of the previously civilized world. By the mid 7th century Islam had arrived on the scene and organised the barbarian rabble into Islamic armies which joined in the Jihad to convert the known world to Islam by the sword.
The Islamic invasion of europe continued for centuries, and the unending wars dragged europe into a period of disorder and backwardness, known as The Dark Ages.

18th century empire was divided for centuries and Ottoman Turks had to fight to British and other western powers in Middle East with the lost of millions of soldiers, they have lost when the arabs turned their back to them and went under British rule that messed up the region further.

Yes, the Arabs turned their backs on the Turks in the Middle East because contrary to what you stated earlier they were not happy under their brutal rule. The Ottomans sided with the Germans in WW1 and the British promised the Arabs independance if they would rise up against their Turkish masters. The Arab army was led by a British officer named T.E.Lawrence, otherwise known as Lawrence of Arabia. If you read his autobiography (The Seven Pillars of Wisdom) you soon see how much 'loved' the Turks were.
The Brits of course reneged on their promise to give the Arabs independance. Oil had been discovered by then!!!

Before anyone criticise Islam, should learn their own religion whatever that you beleive.

Yes, Catholicism was the main religion in this country (Ireland) and many dirty deeds have been done down through the ages in the name of Christianity. The difference is that people in the west now see the fault in blind faith in religion as a result of these sins, and secularism is the path followed by western states now. ME countries on the other hand are just starting down the path of religious fascism that the west has now abandoned. Keep your Islamic beliefs to yourself and I'm happy to let you do as you wish. Try to force them on me and I'll fight you back.

And don't forget it is you that trying to interfere with their lives not other way around..

What about 9-11. I think Muslims interfered a lot in my life that day.

...and of course you will get opposition whom you will call terrorists.

And who you will call Freedom Fighters I suppose?

It's all about greed nothing more to it.

Yes...and what is it the Muslims crave from the west? Only their very souls!

Doesn't matter if 10s of thousands die so that you can live your greedy lives.

Ask OPEC this question.

War with terrorism my @ss, someone tell me how many terrorists caught or killed since war with terrorism started and also tell me how many civilians killed by the terrorists that trying to stop terrorism?

Guantanamo is full of terrorists. Richard Reid is in jail, so is Moussaoui. This war will continue and the West will win, don't worry, because neither me nor most of the populations of the west will ever live under the fascist yoke of an Islamis state.
 
Do you remember the 'hate sessions' in Orwell's book. The workers gathered into a room to watch a TV broadcast of the hated 'Goldstein' and were encouraged to shout abuse at the bearded Semitic figure.

'War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength' is the Party's motto, and its language is 'doublespeak'.
 
Re: Islam, History and Democracy

ME countries on the other hand are just starting down the path of religious fascism that the west has now abandoned. Keep your Islamic beliefs to yourself and I'm happy to let you do as you wish. Try to force them on me and I'll fight you back.


Then you don't think that America is full of religious fanatisicm? Even though George Bush rallies his troops with the words "God is on our side"???

What about 9-11. I think Muslims interfered a lot in my life that day.

A bit of a sweeping statement isn't it? A small group of Islamic fundamentalists would be a better way of putting it...unless you want to tar all Muslims with the same brush.

Yes...and what is it the Muslims crave from the west? Only their very souls!

Funny...zinger says the very same thing. Hmmm...I wonder.
You need to learn to differentiate between Muslims and terrorists.

This war will continue and the West will win, don't worry, because neither me nor most of the populations of the west will ever live under the fascist yoke of an Islamis state.

This war is not a war though really is it? Stating that you will never live under an Islamic state serves no real purpose as far as I can see. Did you ever think this was going to happen?

I suggest you try to understand the reasons behind Islamic terrorism before you jump to unfortunate conclusions.
 
Re: Islam, History and Democracy

Absolutely correct. Islam is incompatible with democracy. Muslims are not ashamed of this, but very proud to say it. NO to democracy.

72 million Turkish muslims, who live in a secular democracy, would be surprised to hear this.

But then, according to your analysis, they're all the same, right? The perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks were all muslim, therefore all muslims perpetrated the 9/11 attacks?

-- James.
 
Iraq

It is a well know fact that Saddam Hussein used to pay generous bounties to the families of suicide bombers in Israel, in order to entice them to commit their dastardly deeds ( along with the promise of dozens of virgins in heaven etc ). Perhaps Piggy agrees with this also?

By the way, Piggy ( what an apt name !), what Iraqui company will all of us work for if your friends get their way ? Or are we as likely to be treated as well as Saddam treated the rest of his population?

Grow up.
 
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