Case study Ulster Bank not contactable so I went into arrears

[Louisa2014]

Now, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Brendan

Brendan I'm reply to another person's comment that asked where I'm getting the information on that more people are not in arrears before entering the MARPS process. this is what I've been told by professionals in the business that I'm dealing with on this. Most of their cases are people pre arrears enters MARPS. My sister was not in arrears before entering the MARPS process. She now is in arrears and is facing her loan being sold . I'm not understanding what's the issue with my statement and why that is difficult to understand. It's a fact that I was told by professionals dealing with the banks on behalf of clients.

 

[Louisa2014]

From the sounds of it, just about anyone would be more efficient than Ulster Bank, so no issue there.

Why do you think Cerberus will do a restructure, though? It's just over a year now since I dealt with them, but there is no way they could consider doing one at that time. All I was offered was pay off the arrears immediately, pay off the total (with discount), sell my home or face repossession. I spoke with others who were offered the same "choice". Maybe they've mellowed with time, though.....

Hi there new tothis, may I was what discount they offered on the outstanding mortgage if you clear it ( meaning getting refinance in my case) If I get my credit clear I may refinance for her, or she has another property we are desperate trying to sell to raise cash in case that happens but it will fall short on what's owed. I have been told they do not offer restructuring of loans or mortgage to rent. What agent are you dealing with , we are waiting for the letter......

 

[newtothis]

Obviously I have no idea about your circumstances. Maybe your mortgage is totally unsustainable. Maybe you can pay a lot more but are refusing to do so.

It's not too complicated. If you are in genuine difficulties and doing your best and your mortgage is sustainable and they refuse a restructuring, then...
Appeal the case using their internal appeals process
If they have not adhered to MARP go to the FSO
At the same time write to them setting out your own proposal for restructuring your mortgage
Make your payments in accordance with that.

There isn't very much that they can do. They can annoy you and take you to court but they won't get an order for possession.

Alternatively you can just rail against the vulture funds and pay nothing and see how you get on with that.

Brendan

I take it from your response that you now accept that people are not going to get a restructure from Cerberus, regardless of their circumstances?

For sure you can appeal internally (I did), if only to demonstrate you’re serious and are not going to roll over.

There is no point in appealing to the FSO; they have nothing to offer in terms of effective remedies: in particular they cannot compel banks or funds to offer any particular resolution.

That leaves throwing yourself on the mercy of the courts. I accept completely what you say about the chances of repossession being virtually non-existent if you’re doing all you can and that it is sufficient to offer the prospect of repayment in the long term. But why on earth should you be forced to go through the stress that it involves? To have the sword of Damocles hanging over you for years?

 

[newtothis]

Hi there new tothis, may I was what discount they offered on the outstanding mortgage if you clear it ( meaning getting refinance in my case) If I get my credit clear I may refinance for her, or she has another property we are desperate trying to sell to raise cash in case that happens but it will fall short on what's owed. I have been told they do not offer restructuring of loans or mortgage to rent. What agent are you dealing with , we are waiting for the letter......

It was a discount somewhere between 30% and 35% from memory. That sounds generous, but a significant part of it is needed to take account of surrendering the very low tracker rate we were on. It was next to impossible to raise the finance elsewhere. I eventually managed to get it from AIB after Danske (the original loan provider) finally admitted that our credit history should not have shown any arrears: that had to be dragged out of them. Even then it took about three months to arrange the new mortgage. This all happened last year, by the way, so things may have moved on since.

By “agent” do you mean company, which was Capita Asset Management, or individual?

Edit update, to clarify: Cerberus refused to make an offer, but said they would consider any that we made. They accepted the first figure we put to them. From what I've heard, they might have accepted slightly but not signifantly more (the figures I've heard but have no way of verifying range from 20% to 35% discount).

 

[newtothis]

So yes they are driving customers in the MARPS process into arrears while you are waiting for your formal arrangement to be in place.
I have done the complaint route, that's pending since AUgust 2017, follow up every month, still no resolution, have letters asking for more time to look into this,
received a phone call start of August to say it's all a mistake then we get a letter to say her loan is being sold. It's a zoo. Without a resolution letter I can't' even bring it to the FSO to get the credit reports and the arrears cleared.

Louisa, this all sounds so familiar! As I keep saying, unless you've experienced it directly it is impossible to understand fully what it is like. I can understand commentators saying things like "why don't you do X and it'll all be grand", or "if you're in situation Z you must have been a very naughty boy"..... It is completely different to any other business transaction or agreement I've been party to. It truly is Kafkaesque!

All I can say is your sister is definitely not alone, and she should keep plugging away; hopefully, it will all come right in the end for her.

 

[newtothis]

Those that deal face on with their debts accepting they owe the money will fair best not those who criticise the lack of adherence to processes, just my own view of course.

That's a completely false dichotomy. I agree with you that dealing face on with my debts achieved the best outcome. However, I'm also one of those who criticise the banks. They made my and many others' situation worse rather than better (ironically, increasing their own loss in the process in my case) and needlessly caused and are still causing great stress and upset due to their behaviour.

Your statements about working all hours and skimping on everything is the alternative to being in arrears and transferred to a vulture fund apart from a few hardship cases is downright insulting. Again, a completely false dichotomy. Do you seriously think the experiences described in this thread are somehow unique to the individuals concerned? That failure to comply with MARP is just a technical infringement, rather than something that can drive someone into arrears as you've heard here? That banks aren't the ones who don't engage? That banks don't tell lies?

Again, I have already said that I accept completely there are chancers out there who are exploiting the system and agree completely they should be dealt with accordingly and that this is long overdue. I refuse to accept that they are in the majority, though, which you seem to believe. There is no evidence to support that belief, even if you accept the word of the banks, which I see no reason why anyone would.

 

[Bronte]

Brendan
It's my sisters family home and my name is on the mortgage; So I am on the hook for the balance over 250 K. I have my own mortgage family home and others in addition to this. I had a perfect credit rating, am self employed. Having me pay her full mortgage on a house I'm not renting out or living in is not a viable option.
She has a 50/50 prospect of being able to pay the full amount pending her divorce but in the mean time needs to be on arrangement based on her current income ( 1000 a month) I'm pushing for UB to stop selling the mortgage based on the fact she should be able to pay next year in full or she has offered to sell after her divorce.

her arrears have destroyed my credit so no hope of a refinance for a shot sell offer. I don't think she's get a short sell offer as she's on tracker rate of .90
In the mean time, i'm trying to get UB to reverse the selling of it , get the incorrect arrears off the account while within the marps process
Having arrears on an account in transfer seems to be a nightmare for everyone, I'm just trying to find my way through this process like everyone else in the situation since this sale was announced.

You attack the bank but there are a number of factors that you are refusing to admit:

- you made a big mistake going guarantor on her mortgage, how did that come about and what led you to think it was a good idea
- Your sister did not pay her mortgage, she, not the bank, put your credit rating on the line
- you could have mitigated this by helping to pay her mortgage, why did you not do this
- her divorce is a side issue and of no relevance, though it is tragic
- has your sister been totally honest with you in all her dealings as regards this property
- did your sister do everything she could to pay the mortgage, did she cut down her spending to the minimum
- I don't believe one word of any story on AAM unless I see figures
- And I don't believe that the bank put anyone in arrears, rather a person went into arrears because they did not pay their mortgage as per their contract
- One thing I will agree on though, banks have been terrible and I'm a client of Ulster bank and I can't stand them, plus I've been to the ombudsman with them and lost

 

[Carrot/stick]

The above is ridiculous and don't pass any heed to most of it. The mistakes you did/didn't make are irrelevant. You are where you are. Also her divorce is very relevant regarding how much she can pay. You need to have a frank conversation with your sister about the consequences of the situation getting worse and bring the isi guidelines on expenditure to her and your attention. All this is a t crossing and I dotting situation for court. Any one who can say that a bank can't drive your sister into arrears while agreeing that they are terrible obviously has not been in this situation before. If you are unsure and not familiar with the processes seek help with your sister through a pip.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

It's my sisters family home and my name is on the mortgage; So I am on the hook for the balance over 250 K. I have my own mortgage family home and others in addition to this. I had a perfect credit rating, am self employed. Having me pay her full mortgage on a house I'm not renting out or living in is not a viable option.
She has a 50/50 prospect of being able to pay the full amount pending her divorce

Hi Louisa


As you are also liable, I strongly suggest that you start a fresh thread and give this information in this format:

Information required for mortgage arrears and negative equity questions

I am not sure that you will get a restructure from any Irish lender if you and your sister have the capacity to repay it.

If a borrower puts in a proposal saying "I have a 50/50 chance of being able to pay my mortgage..." it would sound to me that the mortgage is not sustainable by just one of the borrowers. So the lender should call on you to pay the money you owe.

 

[Palerider]

According to a recent Central Bank report compiled by one of their economists at least 40% of those in long term arrears ( in numbers that would be around 11600 mortgage holders ) are failing to engage with their lender, not replying to letters or phone calls. Charlie Weston covered this in yesterday's Irish Independent, it makes interesting reading.

Whilst the issue is very personal to those impacted and doing their best the reality is there are other sides to the arrears crisis, this is one of them, yet another factor slowing down the recovery to what I will refer to as normal lending practice.

I've stated previously buyers of distressed loans such as vulture funds are necessary if we want to have a functioning banking system, a system that is available to support those coming after us who want to finance a property, a small business owner looking to expand, a car loan etc

 

[newtothis]

According to a recent Central Bank report compiled by one of their economists at least 40% of those in long term arrears ( in numbers that would be around 11600 mortgage holders ) are failing to engage with their lender, not replying to letters or phone calls. Charlie Weston covered this in yesterday's Irish Independent, it makes interesting reading.

What if I told you that on more than one occasion when dealing with a bank when I was being dealt with under MARP, I was told on the phone quite explicitly to ignore a letter they had sent?

The problem with any Central Bank report is that they presumably rely on the banks reporting the figures into them. You cannot take anything the banks say at face value, especially when they are saying something that diverts blame away from them.

I have no idea if I was ever included in the numbers classed as not engaging, but it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if I was, despite the fact it was the bank that refused to respond to me, for months at a time.

To explain a bit further: they would agree to extend a temporary arrangement pending them coming up with a long-term proposal. When the original period of the temporary arrangement finished a letter would arrive, full of threatening language about the dire consequences of not responding. I’d ring up, and maybe after a couple of weeks I would maybe get to speak with someone. They’d look everything up, say “yes, I see now, yes everything’s OK, keep doing what you are, don’t worry about the letter, that’s just an automated thing that gets sent out….”. In retrospect, I would not be surprised if it got counted as an instance on non-engagement when the Central Bank came looking for numbers and explanations of why more solutions had not been reached.

Have you not learned that you cannot take anything the banks say at face value?

I’ve said it many times now: unless you have direct experience of this, it’s very hard to get an appreciation of how the banks have behaved and where the bulk of the blame lies in not having the problem long since sorted.

 

[Carrot/stick]

Although what you say is correct in your situation newtothis my experience with my lender was very efficient despite our situation changing no less than 3 times over a 2 year period due to illness and been out of work for the same period. I do find it hard to believe that people cannot pick up the phone/send in a sfs/go to mabs/or any other organisation that may be able to help them for any period of time over a month. I personally think repossession should be fast tracked for anyone who has not engaged for a period of 3 months(ie, no phone contact/sfs/income verification) and that they should be obliged to go to a pip before their first court date. A definitive line should be drawn under their financial situation. If the won't pay can't be weeded out from the can't pay then performing loans will be sold to vulture funds to sweeten portfolios. As it stands if you engage with your lender your mortgage will be deemed sustainable or unsustainable which is correct. If deemed unsustainable legal action starts pretty quickly and because the debtor is engaging they will more than likely go to a pip and get their situation resolved in a reasonable time frame. However it seems if you don't engage it seems to be the case that the process of engagement is facilitated through the courts with multiple tactics been engaged to drag the process out. This seems insane. It's only my take on things from my very limited personal experience and small amount of research.

 

[newtothis]

Hi Carrot/stick,

I can see absolutely nothing wrong with anything you say. I’ve said it many times: there should be no sympathy or facilitation of anyone who is in the “won’t pay” category. And, yes, of course the courts should be more efficient at what they do.

My issue is firstly with people promoting the view that the majority of people fall into the “won’t pay” category, with absolutely no evidence to back it up; that don’t seem to believe that people can be in a situation of arrears with no resolution after a period of years for any reason other than their own fault; that somehow they’ve nothing to fear from being transferred to a vulture fund; that banks can be believed in anything they say and other similar views expressed here.

The biggest issue I have by far, though, is with the banks. I won’t repeat yet again the way in which they’ve behaved in my case, other than to re-state unless you’ve experienced it, it is very hard to believe. I can fully understand those that take a different view to my own if they haven't experienced it first hand. My brother in law, who has spent 20+ years working in banking could not believe how they acted in my case. My views are based on my own experience, but then I read many accounts on this site that demonstrate pretty much the same thing. Towards the end of my ordeal I went to an advisor, not one of the ones with a high profile (so no publicity seeking question marks over them), but someone who has dealt with many, many others in the same situation. Ironically, he himself was someone in a similar situation. He saw my experience as absolutely typical.

The banks behaviour was absolutely bizarre in many places along my particular journey. At one point, they offered a solution that they declared to be sustainable, despite the fact it had me paying out €2k+/month during a period when I’d indicated I expected to have no income. On another, they declared a proposal of mine to be unsustainable, even when I could demonstrate a track record of being able to make the required payments. As it stands, they ended up with taking what must have been a severe write-down in transferring the loan to a vulture fund (60%+ ?), when they’d rejected an offer that would have seen them get more than 100% of their original total amount (capital + interest) back.

How to resolve? I think right from the start, when the scale of the crisis became obvious, banks should have been forced to have an independent third party intervene and determine the best and most equitable solution in each case, with different sets of criteria for buy-to-let/second homes and primary homes. If anyone didn’t engage with the third party, they could take the consequences in courts. The third party would determine what was sustainable, having the full range of options available (not just what the bank chose to provide). But we'd be waiting a long time for the pigs to fly by before we saw anything like that happening.....

 

[Louisa2014]

I’ve said it many times now: unless you have direct experience of this, it’s very hard to get an appreciation of how the banks have behaved and where the bulk of the blame lies in not having the problem long since sorted.

Newtothis, never a truer word said, anyone who has NOT engaged with banks in the MARPS process have absolutely NO idea, people need to wake up to spin, it's called spin for a reason, I'm sick of reading comments from people who have very righteous opinions and seem very naïve about the MARPS process

Totally agree on your comment about the central bank and ignoring letters, I've been told many a many time , ignore that letter it's just a system thing. Of course all of these are used as a count for the central bank numbers.

I have a friend in compliance in banking who is horrified on our case, and said to me the only thing that stops and changes the banks behaviour is HUGE FINES... the bank drive people into arrears in the MARPS process , sell your loan and include you in their stats that you don't belong

My sisters house more than likely will be sold pending the outcome of her divorce, however the main issue I have now is getting these arrears off the account before the vulture fund sale comes through, these arrears should never have happened when you are in an arrangement, delays with Ulster B. caused this.
I have to get these removed or else the Vulture fund will call it in, again you really have to be in this situation to see how disastrous it is to deal with.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Hi Louisa


As you are also liable, I strongly suggest that you start a fresh thread and give this information in this format:

Information required for mortgage arrears and negative equity questions

Hi Louisa

I say it again...

Rather than rant about how Ulster Bank put your sister into arrears, why not do something positive? Put up this information and you might get useful suggestions.

Brendan

 

[Carrot/stick]

Hi Carrot/stick,

I can see absolutely nothing wrong with anything you say. I’ve said it many times: there should be no sympathy or facilitation of anyone who is in the “won’t pay” category. And, yes, of course the courts should be more efficient at what they do.

My issue is firstly with people promoting the view that the majority of people fall into the “won’t pay” category, with absolutely no evidence to back it up; that don’t seem to believe that people can be in a situation of arrears with no resolution after a period of years for any reason other than their own fault; that somehow they’ve nothing to fear from being transferred to a vulture fund; that banks can be believed in anything they say and other similar views expressed here.

The biggest issue I have by far, though, is with the banks. I won’t repeat yet again the way in which they’ve behaved in my case, other than to re-state unless you’ve experienced it, it is very hard to believe. I can fully understand those that take a different view to my own if they haven't experienced it first hand. My brother in law, who has spent 20+ years working in banking could not believe how they acted in my case. My views are based on my own experience, but then I read many accounts on this site that demonstrate pretty much the same thing. Towards the end of my ordeal I went to an advisor, not one of the ones with a high profile (so no publicity seeking question marks over them), but someone who has dealt with many, many others in the same situation. Ironically, he himself was someone in a similar situation. He saw my experience as absolutely typical.

The banks behaviour was absolutely bizarre in many places along my particular journey. At one point, they offered a solution that they declared to be sustainable, despite the fact it had me paying out €2k+/month during a period when I’d indicated I expected to have no income. On another, they declared a proposal of mine to be unsustainable, even when I could demonstrate a track record of being able to make the required payments. As it stands, they ended up with taking what must have been a severe write-down in transferring the loan to a vulture fund (60%+ ?), when they’d rejected an offer that would have seen them get more than 100% of their original total amount (capital + interest) back.

How to resolve? I think right from the start, when the scale of the crisis became obvious, banks should have been forced to have an independent third party intervene and determine the best and most equitable solution in each case, with different sets of criteria for buy-to-let/second homes and primary homes. If anyone didn’t engage with the third party, they could take the consequences in courts. The third party would determine what was sustainable, having the full range of options available (not just what the bank chose to provide). But we'd be waiting a long time for the pigs to fly by before we saw anything like that happening.....

I don't doubt you but with those delays were you deemed non engaging? If you were not then it is the likes of yourself that should be protected from been sold to a vulture fund.

 

[Carrot/stick]

I went through the marp process and cannot fault my lender. I am not trying to pass judgement on your situation. Everyone will have a different experience of marp taken into account their different lender, circumstances and reason for ending up in the process. At the end of the day it is a very difficult negotiation process and if it all goes wrong you can seek professional help although I would personally do this before it goes wrong. Remember to be deemed non engaging/co-operating you had to be notified in writing.

 

[newtothis]

I went through the marp process and cannot fault my lender.

Just out of curiosity, who was that lender?

 

[Bronte]

My sisters house more than likely will be sold pending the outcome of her divorce, however the main issue I have now is getting these arrears off the account before the vulture fund sale comes through, these arrears should never have happened when you are in an arrangement, delays with Ulster B. caused this.
I have to get these removed or else the Vulture fund will call it in, again you really have to be in this situation to see how disastrous it is to deal with.

How are you going to pay off the arrears?

 

[Carrot/stick]

Just out of curiosity, who was that lender?

I'd rather not say. I will say that it was very clear with them how I would be deemed non cooperating/engaging and they reacted very quickly to any paperwork submitted.

It drives me crazy as well all the talk about people who won't pay feels like everyone is been branded the same.

You make a very good point about an independent third party been involved and this was/is available through 2/3 lenders. I personally think this should have been implemented on all lenders/borrowers from very early on.