Time to ease parking restrictions in city centre?

[Purple]

Ah, the either/or fallacy! Firstly road space isn't a constant. You can increase capacity by smarter traffic signalling systems, tunnels or overpasses. Second, you can vastly increase public transport capacity by going underground. It is the green lobby that constantly demonises motorists rather than advocating for a solution that works for both cars and public transport users.

Seriously? Tunnels and overpasses shoehorned into Dublin city Centre?
It would cost tens of billions of Euro in construction, take decades and cause billions in disruption.
We could have drones or helicopters picking up cars and flying them into the city centre. That would be cheaper and more commercially viable.

I suggest that if we are boring tunnels we'd be better off running trains through them. That way we wouldn't have new roads popping out of the ground in what are already congested city streets. I travel 10Km from one side of Dublin to the other each day. Even with the fantastic lockdown traffic it is only 5 minutes slower on the bike. Dublin is far more cycle friendly and safer than it was 20 years ago. That means more people cycle so there is more room for those who drive.

 

[Baby boomer]

Proposing a potential scenario with basis in fact is one thing, supposing an entire road would be built and then later dedicated solely to cycling is quite far removed.

Again, at the risk of repeating myself, it is quite legitimate to make a SUPPOSITION along the lines of: If A happened, then B would follow. The supposition may be unlikely or fanciful, but that doesn't invalidate the essential logic of the If A, then B proposition. It is independent of whether A is correct or not.

The context was dedicated cycling infrastructure budget, how do buses come into that? Roads budget is separate, bus and car lanes come from that single budget.

Ah, so the 2% doesn't include the vast majority of cycle lanes then! Very smooth propagandizing! The real budget for cycling infrastructure is vastly bigger then if you allocate the share of the roads budget consumed by cycle lanes and bus/cycle lanes. These are off-limits to private cars.

 

[Leo]

Again, at the risk of repeating myself, it is quite legitimate to make a SUPPOSITION along the lines of: If A happened, then B would follow.

Again, it's only valid if based in reality. Supposing what would happen if we were all given flying cars in the morning doesn't achieve much, yet that is exactly as likely to happen as your scenario.

Ah, so the 2% doesn't include the vast majority of cycle lanes then! Very smooth propagandizing!

You only catching up now? No, dedicated cycle infrastructure is just that. It doesn't cover the cycle lanes that are essentially car parks.

 

[Leo]

That means more people cycle so there is more room for those who drive.

There's also the awareness in numbers phenomenon where when cyclist numbers increase to around a 10% share, motorists become more aware of vulnerable users and behaviours change resulting in a significant drop in overall injury collisions numbers.

 

[Baby boomer]

Seriously? Tunnels and overpasses shoehorned into Dublin city Centre?
It would cost tens of billions of Euro in construction, take decades and cause billions in disruption.
We could have drones or helicopters picking up cars and flying them into the city centre. That would be cheaper and more commercially viable.

I suggest that if we are boring tunnels we'd be better off running trains through them. That way we wouldn't have new roads popping out of the ground in what are already congested city streets. I travel 10Km from one side of Dublin to the other each day. Even with the fantastic lockdown traffic it is only 5 minutes slower on the bike. Dublin is far more cycle friendly and safer than it was 20 years ago. That means more people cycle so there is more room for those who drive.

You're strawmanning. I didn't say tunnels and overpasses were desirable, merely that they were possible. And we already have a very successful port tunnel in Dublin.
But improved traffic signalling measures could increase effective road capacity. That's real low hanging fruit.

As for drones and helicopters picking up cars and flying them into the city centre - that's just ridiculous! Nor would it be cheaper than tunnels.

But, yes, you're absolutely right about building tunnels for underground rail. This is so obvious, I'm amazed it hasn't already been started. It'll have to happen anyway as the busconnects bodge will only meet the demand for a decade or so at best. Wouldn't it make more sense to provide a half decent rapid transit system first that might tempt people out of their cars rather than torture them out of their cars as per current policy?

If all 50,000 people who commute daily into Dublin decided to switch to public transport tomorrow (well ok, post virus return to normality tomorrow) the capacity just isn't there. Luas, commuter rail and Dart are packed to the rafters at peak times. Buses are full too, where would they go? Cars will be a part of the commuting mix for the foreseeable future; we should plan for it and stop this ideological persecution of motorists.

 

[Baby boomer]

Again, it's only valid if based in reality. Supposing what would happen if we were all given flying cars in the morning doesn't achieve much, yet that is exactly as likely to happen as your scenario.

"doesn't achieve much" and "based in reality" are two separate concepts. Fortunately, the human brain is well able to process hypotheticals that might not be based in reality. It may not always achieve much but sometimes it will. The power of imagination!

You only catching up now? No, dedicated cycle infrastructure is just that. It doesn't cover the cycle lanes that are essentially car parks.

Try driving (yet alone parking) in a bus/cycle lane and the Garda will quickly disabuse you of the notion that it's a car park. Anyway glad we agree that the totality of cycling infrastructure (dedicated plus non-dedicated) considerably exceeds 2% of cost.

 

[Purple]

You're strawmanning.

I'm strawmanning?! Sweet This post will be deleted if not edited immediately.

You do know that there is a Dublin Traffic Management and Incident Centre which manages and improves traffic flows in Dublin?
It's state of the art and is doing, and has been doing, what you think should happen.
If you don't know why the State has not built a Metro in Dublin then you must not have read a newspaper or listened to a radio in the last 15 years.

So, your solution is to do something we are already doing or build tunnels and overpasses for cars, or not for cars, for trains, but have more road space for cars, not for cyclists, even though it's the bus lanes that actually take lanes away from cars. I think you need to think about tis a bit more.

That's me finished here.

 

[Baby boomer]

I'm strawmanning?! Sweet This post will be deleted if not edited immediately.

Well, you did imply I was advocating tunnels and overpasses when I merely said they were possible! Which was in response to your claim that road space is fixed. Which it obviously isn't.

That's me finished here.

Given the extent to which you misrepresented my position, that's probably a good thing!

 

[Purple]

Well, you did imply I was advocating tunnels and overpasses when I merely said they were possible! Which was in response to your claim that road space is fixed. Which it obviously isn't.

Okay, I'll bite.
You said;

Ah, the either/or fallacy! Firstly road space isn't a constant. You can increase capacity by smarter traffic signalling systems, tunnels or overpasses.

That's you saying that road space isn't constant because tunnels and overpasses can be built. In a discussion about the provision of cycle paths and public transport when you bring these things up as alternatives then people will think that you are proposing them as alternatives. If you don't want people to think you are serious please preface your comment with the qualification that what follows is a flight of fantasy, a hypothetical musing, and should be completely ignored in the context of the discussion which is being conducted.

Given the extent to which you misrepresented my position, that's probably a good thing!

My apologies, I thought what you said was what you meant.

 

[Sunny]

So anyway, the Coronavirus thing...….

 

[Baby boomer]

My apologies, I thought what you said was what you meant.

Yes but what I meant wasn't the same as what you thought that what I said meant and what you said you thought I said isn't the same as what I said anyway.

Lock this thread quick, please!

 

[Bigbangr1]

The clampers will be back too work from 2moro

 

[Leo]

"doesn't achieve much" and "based in reality" are two separate concepts. Fortunately, the human brain is well able to process hypotheticals that might not be based in reality. It may not always achieve much but sometimes it will. The power of imagination!

It's quite clear you have a vivid imagination. But talking about hypotheticals that have 0% chance of ever becoming a reality are a complete waste of time in erlation to

Try driving (yet alone parking) in a bus/cycle lane and the Garda will quickly disabuse you of the notion that it's a car park.

Anyone being honest who drives around Dublin on an average day will witness hundreds of these offences, few if any are penalised. The published numbers very clearly confirm that.

Anyway glad we agree that the totality of cycling infrastructure (dedicated plus non-dedicated) considerably exceeds 2% of cost.

We don't![/QUOTE]

 

[Baby boomer]

Anyone being honest who drives around Dublin on an average day will witness hundreds of these offences, few if any are penalised. The published numbers very clearly confirm that.

True enough, to a point I suppose. Depends on where and when. There are spots where Gardai are on "bus lane duty" pretty regularly, eg M3 inbound during morning rush hour. And they DO penalise offenders. I have also noticed that a lot of motorists avoid using bus/cycle lanes even outside the period when they're operating. For example, the N1 from Whitehall to Druncondra has a bus/cycle lane that ceases between 10:00 and 12:00 yet I've seen countless motorists backed up in the other lane during this period when it would be perfectly legal for them to nip in and use the bus lane.

Equally, anyone who drives around Dublin on an average day will witness hundreds of cyclists committing offences, few if any being penalised. But cyclists are all-virtuous so that's ok.

We don't!

So, if dedicated cycling infrastructure gets 2 % of spending AND there's also non-dedicated cycle infrastructure, then it must follow that the total spend on cycling infrastructure (dedicated and non-dedicated) must exceed 2%. QED.

 

[Leo]

There are spots where Gardai are on "bus lane duty" pretty regularly, eg M3 inbound during morning rush hour. And they DO penalise offenders.

I very rarely see them around south Dublin on my commute, but I do see dozens of motorists in bus lanes. There are only around 4,000 fines issued for driving in bus lanes pa, so enforcement rates are minuscule.

Equally, anyone who drives around Dublin on an average day will witness hundreds of cyclists committing offences, few if any being penalised. But cyclists are all-virtuous so that's ok.

There isn't that many cyclists for you to witness hundreds of them, let alone hundreds of offences on a daily basis. I didn't see anyone here suggest cyclists were virtuous, in my experience there are very similar ratios of all classes of road users who believe the laws are for everyone else. On the bright side, when a cyclist is an idiot, it is they who come off worst.

 

[Baby boomer]

I very rarely see them around south Dublin on my commute, but I do see dozens of motorists in bus lanes. There are only around 4,000 fines issued for driving in bus lanes pa, so enforcement rates are minuscule.



There isn't that many cyclists for you to witness hundreds of them, let alone hundreds of offences on a daily basis. I didn't see anyone here suggest cyclists were virtuous, in my experience there are very similar ratios of all classes of road users who believe the laws are for everyone else. On the bright side, when a cyclist is an idiot, it is they who come off worst.

Obviously, the Gardai realise that you Southsiders are an inherently lawful lot and they therefore concentrate enforcement on us recalcitrant Northsiders!

Isn't riding on the footpath an offence? You'd have no problem clocking up hundreds of incidences of that on a day! Then there's breaking traffic lights - a lot of cyclists don't think that applies to them.

 

[Leo]

Obviously, the Gardai realise that you Southsiders are an inherently lawful lot and they therefore concentrate enforcement on us recalcitrant Northsiders!

I'm not even a Dub, so I'm not sure whether I can take that as a compiment or an insult

Isn't riding on the footpath an offence? You'd have no problem clocking up hundreds of incidences of that on a day! Then there's breaking traffic lights - a lot of cyclists don't think that applies to them.

Of course it is, and for the hundreds of incidences of that offence, you have thousands of drivers parking partially or fully on footpaths which is also an offence. Again, with breaking the lights, I see more cars than cyclists do that, it'd be nice if all offenders were penalised. Anyway, the "everyone else is worse than my mode of transport" has been done to death in the motoring forum, it never really gets to any conclusion. It's a function of having the most congested city in Europe, everyone is frustrated it takes so long to get anywhere, and we're all blind to our own transgressions.