The Terror Threat and how the US deals with it

Re.Causes of conflict

I agree YD, if you are fat and happy you won't give a toss if the government is imposed or elected, at least not enough of one to fight over it. The IRA recruited, for the most part, from poor areas, the suicide bombers my be educated but see no hope for a better life.
The guy who will kill a stranger for his belongings is not the one to fear, it's the guy who will kill him because he doesn't agree with his beliefs.
I often think of the great American principals that all have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness and how often we in the west have deprived other of at least the latter two in order to guarantee that we have access to all three.

america

No one has even bothered to mention how America has treated people in the Middle East. They treat them like dogs so they get what they deserve.

this discussion

I find this discussion fascinating for one reason. The ignorance of so many people. There are two people here who've offered balanced points of view. Piggy & Purple. I can't believe that people would have a go at Piggy for trying to point out that Western media is presenting a propogandaist view of the Middle East and Muslims in general. It just shows peoples stupidity that they cant even recognise when theyve been brainwashed by their own media.
The voice of reason in the madness of Iraq is tiny. Its the smallest minority you could find. CNN and the BBC and FOX present the west with news that suits their point of view. Try to imagine what life is like for people in the middle east and try to imagine what it must be like to live in the west as a muslim right now. The level of hate and stupidity here has reached levels that Ive never before seen on this messageboard. Most muslims are good people and those who aren't are driven by all sorts of complex reasons. There are bad people on both sides of this war. What will save us all is trying to reach understanding between both sides. Listen to the peacemakers.

and you are

an expert on muslims!
ever read the Quran or even a book on it?
you agree with piggy and purple, lucky them
don't judge others
your post is patronising

read the Quran

Hi Jim,
In fairness reading the Quran, or the Bible for that matter, does not tell us much about what it means to be a Muslim or a Catholic now days. Within a few generations of the prophet Mohammed and This post will be deleted if not edited immediately their followers had splintered to such an extent that blood flowed. Now, one and a half to two thousand years later the people on both extremes have little in common with those in the middle.
As YD pointed out a lot of it comes down to access to resources with religion being the most visible division in the middle east. In sub Saharan Africa the division is usually tribal, even in Sudan where it is Muslim against Christian the religious divide is along tribal lines which in turn is along pastoralist and farming lines.
Christian and Muslim is just another badge of identification between groups that come from different view points.
The Dutch merchant state in the 17th century which was Calvinist in name but secular in nature must have been feared be catholic Spain in the same way that we are now feared be many Muslims. Indeed the Spanish invaded the low countries on a number of occasions.
Where we must draw a distinction is between the disapproval of the selfish consumerist west by many Muslims and the hatred and willingness to commit mass murder by a tiny minority of Muslims. The hatred of consumerism and materialism in the middle east is more understandable when you look at the poverty of the masses of normal people in most Arab countries and the unimaginable luxury and wealth of the ruling classes. Islam's attraction was that it stopped those sort of abuses in the middle ages and now it's fundamentalist groups seek to do the same thing now.

There have been many comments on this thread about the crusades driving Islam out of Europe. I would like to point out that the farmers of eastern Europe were much better off as free peasants who paid a religious poll tax under Islamic rule than as the surfs they became under Austo-Hungarian and Russian rule. Slaves bound to the land who could not move under pain of death paying 50% taxes or doing three days a week free labour on their masters lands.

I am no expert on Islam but those who say "read your history" or "read the Quran" must admit that the omission of facts is as bad as lying. One could construct a history that shows Islam as the liberal good guys, the Catholics as the liberal good guys or the whole lot as just power groups and empires trying to expand their power base (which is the version I support).

they cannot be trusted

i think the point being made is that moslems transend national identity and are never really Irish, English, American, etc and basically they cannot be trusted.

If a country with a sizable moslem community went to war (say over territory ,resources, whatever countries go to war over)with a largle moslem country then that country could not trust their moslem community to support them OR even remain NEUTRAL.

Whitch is unacceptable, given that, that country may have over a hundred year welcomed moslems and gave them and their children a good way of life.

If they don't act againsdt their country directly, they do indirectly by abetting those who do.

unreg

Great Wise One

Now, now, Jim, I think we can all recognises that Toby is a GWO. I for one know that I am beaten when a GWO rules against me.

Muslims etc

Well said unregistered. Look at all the foreign muslim fighters who went to Afghanistan + Iraq. Muslims get treated well and fairly in the west, but what does the west get in return? No Christian church is even allowed within its terrority by the government of Saudi Arabia, which itself is not the strictest of Islamic states.
Look at the rules imposed by Islamic states.

I think the muslim Britons that grew up in, and left Bradford or wherever to train with the Taliban / AlQuahida and then took action / plotted action against UK forces / citizens should be tried with treason. The only thing it that we would make martyrs out of them , and they have nothing to fear, not even suicide.

gwo

whats a GWO?

GWO

Pronounced GU as in 2, Great Wise One.

Ignore GWO query

I stand in AWE

NOT shock and awe but Aw shucks are these for real

how can you trust

What about the German Americans who joined the ranks of Hitler’s army in the late 30’s and fought against their fellow countrymen. Does that mean that despite the fact that the majority of German Americans fought against the nazi’s they should all have been regarded with suspicion and distrust?

How many British Muslims are in the British armed forces?
How many went to fight with the Taliban or Al Quahida?

How many American Muslims are in the American armed forces?
How many went to fight with the Taliban or Al Quahida?

Can one of the people who are peddling the idea that all Muslims, or even a statistically relevant minority, cannot be loyal to their country fill in the figures for the questions above?
Of course they might have sympathy with a Muslim country when it is attacked or engages in a conflict, just as we would have sympathy with a Christian country in the same circumstances. That’s a long way from treason.

who can you trust

who needs statistics when you have you're own blinkered prejudices instead.

trust

If irish troops were involved in a firefight with islamic insurgents, would you trust an irish moslem behind you with a gun
I would't

re

Another idiotic "what if" from this guy!

who me?

close this thread, too many whackos like f around

Anti-intolerance forum condemns hatred of Islam

[broken link removed]

"STOCKHOLM

An international conference against intolerance condemned on January 30 "islamophobia", the fear of Muslims, and put it on an equal footing with violent racism, anti-semitism, xenophobia and homophobia.

A declaration approved at the Stockholm International Forum: Combating Intolerance, said delegates representing some 50 governments condemned intolerance in all its aspects.

"Racism, racial discrimination, anti-semitism, islamophobia, xenophobia, discrimination, violence and murder because of sexual orientation, and all other forms of intolerance violate basic human values and threaten democratic society," the resolution said.

Islamophobia was first brought to the attention of a major global forum in 1994 when Jordan's then Crown Prince Hassan urged the UN General Assembly to stem anti-Muslim sentiment "and other manifestations of islamophobia."

Some populations in traditionally Christian Europe have grown restless amid a growing influx of refugees and migrants, many of whom are Muslims.

UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who attended the Stockholm conference, reiterated on January 30 his criticism of ever tighter asylum policies imposed by some EU members.

"The impression is being created that because of popular resentment towards immigrants, some governments are taking approaches which are not in strict conformity with the 1951 Geneva convention (on the treatment of refugees) and with international law," Annan told reporters.

Reuters"

and this was in FEBRUARY 1993

The ideological concepts for their actions are derived from the principles of Islam. The enlightened world is tolerant of all religions, believing that all men should be free to live according to their own faith. However, fundamentalist Islam construes Islamic doctrine in an extreme manner according to which Islamic law should be enforced worldwide, even by means of violence and terrorism if necessary. Islamic fundamentalism has made its religious doctrine into a tool to advance its own interests. The statements made by its leaders are all characterized by the extremity of their accusations against the West and Israel, and against the peace process. These statements are accompanied by anti-semitic declarations of the most extreme type. They call for uncompromising armed struggle against Israel and its complete destruction.

In an era in which the threat of weapons of mass destruction has become a reality, the dangers inherent in Islamic fundamentalism embody grave significance.

re: they cannot be trusted

Unreg and John,

One small point - if you switched Muslim for Jew you probably have a good chance of joining the Department for Nazi propaganda in the 1930's and 40's.

Mind you, you'll probably need a time machine or failing that a ouija board, but on the plus side you'll get a nice new uniform - I sincerely hope brown is your colour :rolleyes

Please tell me you lot are trolling, if not you should sign yourself up for counselling as a matter of urgency...or failing that give yourself up at the local police station and report yourself for committing a race crime....

Incidentally John, ALL those fighters that rallied to the Taliban how many was it again, a couple of thousand or less? You insinuate that ALL muslims rallied to the call hmmmm...... must have been a bit difficult to sit down somewhere in Afganistan if that was the case. :lol

Word to the wise you two, the world is made up of good and bad people - regardless of what and who and where you come from - it's the choices you make that determine which group you end up in.

Funnily enough a lot of Muslims DON'T go in for terrorism -some do admittedly, but then you could say the same for all other religious/political groups.

Regards,

OpusnBill

Re: and this was in FEBRUARY 1993

and this was in FEBRUARY 1993

What was in 1993?


I fear you are still unable to differentiate between fear of Islamic fundamentalism and hatred of all Muslims in general.