The Terror Threat and how the US deals with it

The real debate?

"If it just means the replacement of one genetic stock with another genetic stock, that doesn't matter too much. But if it involves the replacement of Western Civilization with a different civilization with different cultural values, then it is something we really ought to discuss."
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How can you not agree with that Piggy?
This is a real debate and while we should be very careful not to be racist of xenophobic and make comments like "Go to any mosque in a western country - they are the guys in nightdresses with the long beards" as they undermine any argument that one makes. We should equally not brand everyone who questions the wisdom of allowing a culture that is totally alien to secular democratic values to take a foot-hold in the secular democratic west as a racist.
Europe went through two hundred years of religious wars in the 14 and 1500's before the modern nation state that allowed religious freedom as long as is took second place to loyalty to the state.
Islam seeks to create a society or state on earth that is totally bound up in the writings of the Koran, as does Christianity. The difference is that Christianity no longer seeks to impose this on th outward workings of the state and so in that sense is an internalised religion. In other words what goes on in your head and the purity of your intentions are what matter; it aint what you do, it's why you do it.
Islam on the other hand does still seek to impose it's rules on everyone within it's sphere, even if they abide by the rules only in body and not in spirit (i.e. if you fast and pray etc at the right times you will go to paradise even if you fantasize about murder every day) and so Islam can be said to be an externalised religion.
Because of this Islam, in it's still very fundamentalist form(when compared to modern Christianity), is not compatible with the society in which we live and sees the liberties and personal freedoms that we enjoy as undesirable and immoral.
Fundamentalist Christianity, if it was distilled to the same extreme extent, is just as dangerous.
The issue here is peoples fear of the loss of liberty and freedom which goes with any form of totalitarian or fundamentalist system.
 
!

Dangerous drivers being arrested without trial and taken to Gantanamo for a bit of torture lite. Less dangerous but nonetheless careless drivers being dragged from their cars, stripped and then urinated on
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We're not too far away from this already, what with the penalty points etc.
 
Islam

Its too serious an issue for jokes old boy.

Purple - made some excellent points there. Well said.

I was very interested to read in the Sunday Times that Salman Rushdie has a new treatise in print in which he equates the legality of pornography as a measure of freedom in a society.
Although it might be a controversial angle to take, one has to say he's right...in that fundamentalists of all stripes cannot abide it...and we've only just loosened up a little here lately.
 
Re: Islamophobia

"Islam is not your enemy...you are". It's quite simple. Your fear is your undoing. Fear of other cultures and religions that are different to yours or what you understand. Fear and the idea that all Muslims are inherently 'scum' of some sort. That's usually where all hatred in society comes from - fear.

I'm not the only individual in the whole wide western world pointing out the threat frrom Islam

Really?? Hmmm...

I never made any secret of my views on multiculturalism
Is that why you continuously refused to answer my direct question concerning who the "extremist leaders" were you referred to?

I contributed to a whole thread on the subject (which you lost as I recall).

Eh? The thread is now locked as I recall. How exactly is it that you think you...won!!? I disagree with your point of view. As did another poster in the thread. Do you believe that your view somehow wins over other peoples?

You didn't adress the quotes from the Muslims interviewed on that program.
That's because I didn't see it :\ It's equally conceivable that many young Muslims in the UK are holding feelings of deep resentment over how they are being portrayed and treated in the media and by people like you. Thus they lash out as a lot of confused youngsters do.

Like I said. Unless we stop demonising Muslims in western culture we will undoubtedly reap what we (some) fear.
 
Freedom is good up to a point

Salman Rusdhie
equates the legality of pornography as a measure of freedom in a society
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That is actually a truism. The availability of euthanasia, drugs, even guns are even further measures of freedom. Pornography is now freely accepted here in the West, thankfully with the exception of paedophilia. Thailand has no such inhibitions. Is Thailand freeer than the West? In this sphere, certainly yes.

What is insidious about the Rushdie vacuous truism is that it suggests that this (more freedom) is a good thing.

That is clearly not necessarily so - why else do we have laws? Ask women whether they think the gratuitous pornography in Western society is a desirable freedom.

Reverting to topic, this attitude to women and availability of pornography is perhaps the most obvious distinction in practice between Western culture and Islamic culture. I for one am not convinced that the former is superior, at least on this count.
 
Re: The real debate?

How can you not agree with that Piggy?
This is a real debate and while we should be very careful not to be racist of xenophobic and make comments like "Go to any mosque in a western country - they are the guys in nightdresses with the long beards" as they undermine any argument that one makes.

Exactly. As long as there are blatantly Islamophobic comments made by Tizona there can be no reasonable or logical debate on the subject. They are comments of hate. Pure and simple. And I don't think his view on the subject will be in any way softened by your logical and reasoned approach to the subject anyway.

We should equally not brand everyone who questions the wisdom of allowing a culture that is totally alien to secular democratic values to take a foot-hold in the secular democratic west as a racist.
Re my first post in reply to Tizona...when people answer questions like he did of shnaek's then there is only one word for it. Perhaps racist isn't the correct term. Islamophobe certainly fits the bill. Equally the same with the Koran quotations. I find it very difficult to take that kind of rubbish seriously to be honest.

Islam seeks to create a society or state on earth that is totally bound up in the writings of the Koran, as does Christianity
You're discounting the secular but predominantly Muslim countries.
Muslims have been living in western countries for a long long time. All of a sudden (after the announcement of the War on Terror) we're talking about Muslims taking over the world. You'll have to excuse me if I believe it stinks of something similar to McCarthyism(sp?).

The issue here is peoples fear of the loss of liberty and freedom which goes with any form of totalitarian or fundamentalist system.
Why is this the issue? Do you fear that Muslims coming into Ireland are going to take it over and turn it into an Islamic state? Do you fear that Islam is trying to do this in Europe in general? I don't think that's what you're saying but I'm not sure I understand how we can equate any of this to the idea of loss of liberty or freedom.
 
Re: The real debate?

Go back to Europe 900 hundred years ago and the Crusades. Practically all of Western Europe joined forces to destroy the Muslim world in the name of Christanity. What was seen by all at the time as a worthy and just war (of which there were many) was in fact nothing but total genocide. It is interesting now to read the history of the Crusades as written by impartial (hopefully) historians, and the account of the Crusades as documented by the likes of the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia for example. Much more recently, the United States felt justified to drop two atomic bombs on Japan killing approximately 200,000 civilians, something that the US (to the best of my knowledge) has never apologised for. I don't think any normal individual with even an ounce of gumption could justify something so horrendous - equally, I cannot see how anyone can defend the acts of 9/11.

Apart from a minority group of narrow minded individuals, some of which who are posting on this thread unfortunately, the majority of people realise that the type of radical fundamentalist that we have today do not see themselves as "crazed animals", rather they see themselves as freedom figthers, fighting in the name of God - their God, whom they believe in. My sentiments here are not anti-US or anti-Islam, what I'm trying to say is that Western society has come a long way even in the past one hundred years, and I don't mean in technological advances. Education of the masses has ensured that the majority of us have learned from the past lessons of mankind and in my opinion, education is the key to ensuring that A. - WE begin to understand WHY fundamentalists, terrorists, whatever, believe in what they see to be righteous, and B. - they too become schooled to the same level as the rest of the world and realise that the time for achieving any means through violent action has long since passed. Don't forget, we were still burning people at the stake (a fate worse than beheading I'd imagine) in Europe and America less than 250 years ago. Couple this in turn with the fact that technology (specifically military technology) has been introduced far faster to these areas than proper education structures have and you have a recipe for disaster. Instead of an uneducated medieval people with radical views and opinions (Western society a few hundred years ago) fighting for their cause, beliefs, and in the name of God with medieval weapons, we have the same scenario, except the they are now using modern military hardware with the ability to cause destruction on a massive scale.

Regarding the excerpts from the Koran El Cid, I'm assuming you have never read The Bible.
 
Re: The real debate?

Good points well made. Education and understanding are the key.
 
Education?

A. - WE begin to understand WHY fundamentalists, terrorists, whatever, believe in what they see to be righteous, and B. - they too become schooled to the same level as the rest of the world and realise that the time for achieving any means through violent action has long since passed
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Just think about that for a moment, it's about the most condescending thing I have heard in ages. The basic gist of what you are saying is "If only we could shine the light of our superior culture on the faces of these poor creatures they will run to us with arms open and thank us for giving them the gift of our superior ways".
Muslims are just as smart and advanced as Christians. Their opinions and beliefs are developed and informed. For most of the last 1000 years they have been far ahead of us both technologically and socially. The problem is that they, and by that I mean non-secular Muslims, look at the post Christian west and they don't like it and want to change it to suit their beliefs.

That's all there is to it.
Christian missionaries did the same all over the world.

As for quoting the Koran; the Bible(First book) is just as full of that sort of crap, the Christian churches just choose to ignore it as it must be taken in the context of a nomadic iron age people.
 
Muslims

I am surprised there are so many do-gooders / lovers of Islam here in this discussion. Have any of them ever even been to a Muslim country? I fear very few.

We tolerate Muslims here in the west far more than we ( Christian westerners ) are tolerated in most muslim countries. For example, it is forbidden to build or open a Christian church in all of Saudi Arabia, which is a hugh country, which is why there are none there. What about the role of women in most of these countries ?
Are there any women driving around, never mind any pubs etc?

Many millions of Muslims have migrated in to the eu in the last few decades. If they do not like our ways, why do they come here and establish their own ways ?

I have muslim friends, but I fear 9/11 was just a wake up call.
 
Re: Education?

I think you may have misunderstood what I was getting at there Purple.

they too become schooled to the same level as the rest of the world and realise that the time for achieving any means through violent action has long since passed
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Apologies if it came across condescending, it wasn't meant to be......

By education I did not mean that we should inflict the ways of our culture on ANYONE and I certainly did not mean that Muslims or any other race, creed, religious group etc are any less educated than us 'Westerners'; what I WAS getting at was that the majority of people in the West have been educated by the "past lessons of mankind ". History is a cruel teacher, it gives us the test first, and the lesson afterwards. These lessons have been more effective in teaching the masses in the West only because media and freedom of information is more prevelant. Similarly, as we have all seen happen, the massive media coverage and audience can be hugely effective in spreading poor opinion, fear, hatred, and downright ignorance, to the detriment of humanity.

The only reason why we do not have religious fundamentalism to the same scale as they have in some Muslim countries is because not only have we seen the result of such actions in the past and the devastation and destruction it needlessly causes, we also have learnt to a certain extent not to take teachings from our Christian God too literally. If we were to follow EVERY teaching in the Bible for instance we Christians would have probably wiped out half of the planet!
 
Bush is WINNING the WOT

I know there are many in this AAM community who will hate to think that. They will cite the Bali bomb, greatly enhanced terrorist activity in the likes of Saudi, Turkey, Pakistan and indeed Iraq.

But, as we are frequently reminded, Bush doesn't give a damn about these looney tunes. Think of the US itself. Isn't it amazing that in a whole three years since 9/11 there has been no significant terrorist attack there. Think of all that muslim hate against America, think of the many many targets - skyscrapers, undergrounds, nuclear power stations.

They would love to repeat 9/11 but they just can't - Bush is winning - the cost of that win is to force these islamic fanatics to take it out in their own countries (albeit against Weestern interests) but that is just cutting off their noses, but then with the suicide bomber now being their mascot, cutting off their noses is part of their psyche.
 
Re: Bush is WINNING the WOT

This post was supposed to be about how America was really (or not) prepared for a terrorist attack. I fear it would be in vain to even try to go there now...

Think of the US itself. Isn't it amazing that in a whole three years since 9/11 there has been no significant terrorist attack there. Think of all that muslim hate against America, think of the many many targets - skyscrapers, undergrounds, nuclear power stations.

Remember, the point of terrorism isn't just to blow people and buildings up. It's about FEAR too. There's plenty of that in the States right now.
Then there's the soaring oil prices.
Also bear in mind that an attack like 911 probably took about 10 years or so to plan. 3 years is not a long time.

the cost of that win is to force these islamic fanatics to take it out in their own countries (albeit against Weestern interests) but that is just cutting off their noses
I'm not sure you're understanding their interests in the Middle East that well if you believe the fanatics are cutting off their own noses. They're not.
 
islam

We turn our smiling face to you while we are weak, but when we are strong you will all have a choice, convert to Islam or die.
The Quran says to go to your heathen neighbours and offer them this choice, convert or die.
The only exception ins "the people of the book" , the jews and the christians, they do not have to convert but must live under Islamic law.

Remember when we get the atomic bombs, we can all go to heaven in huge numbers.(and take you infidels with us) but not to heaven.

except for piggy as we don't like pork

bigM
 
piggy reveals his true colours

Surprised at you piggy. You seem positively disappointed that 9/11 has not yet been repeated - though appear to take some perverse comfort that these things are 10 years in the making - still hope yet for you.

Meanwhile you try to convince yourself that Americans are cowering in fear.

You get further consolation that oil prices have soared. This one carries some contradiction of earlier espoused piggy conspiracies. I thought the whole WOT/Iraq thing was just a ruse to control oil prices - so it seems Bush has singularly miscalculated in his grand design.

On a separate point - I really do think those quotes from the Koran are horrific - surely anyone who publishes or distributes that material is breaking any incitement to hatred laws that might exist.
 
Re: piggy reveals his true colours

Surprised at you piggy. You seem positively disappointed that 9/11 has not yet been repeated - though appear to take some perverse comfort that these things are 10 years in the making - still hope yet for you.

No. I'm not disapointed. Where did I state that?
It's fact (if you watch the news) that intelligence suggests that they need many years to plan these attacks. I do not support violence of any sort, in any way shape or form.

Meanwhile you try to convince yourself that Americans are cowering in fear.

You get further consolation that oil prices have soared
I'm not trying to convince myself of anything :rolleyes
I'm merely stating a well known fact that terrorism is about striking fear in your enemy. Thus the IRA planted bombs and then tip the police off. Even if the bomb never went off they achieved their objective.
I get no consolation that oil prices have risen. Where did I say that?

Either you're not reading my posts or your just taking what you want to from it.
 
Cultural differences?

Piggy, you say " It's quite simple. Your fear is your undoing. Fear of other cultures and religions that are different to yours or what you understand."

What exactly is it that some don't understand about honour killings, polygamy, female circumcision and stoning people(women) to death for adultery? Do you find these practices repugnant or merely cultural differences we in the unsophisticated West can't appreciate?

As you formulate your response, keep in mind your prior comment of 11/8/04 where you decried a lack of directness in another poster's response to you.
 
Re.Re: piggy reveals his true colours

YD is trolling you piggy, don't respond.

YD, why do you try and pull every thread on anything to do with this topic down to the level of a personalised slagging match?
Do you like having threads closed?

If you disagree with part or all of what people are saying then attack the issues, not the person. I hope we are all grown up's here, lets try and act like it.
 
Re: Cultural differences?

I think you're right purple re YD.

What exactly is it that some don't understand about honour killings, polygamy, female circumcision and stoning people(women) to death for adultery? Do you find these practices repugnant or merely cultural differences we in the unsophisticated West can't appreciate?
Do you really believe that I or anyone for that matter would not find any of the above repugnant? So, you equate these failings of culture with an entire swathe of people. Do you believe Muslims living in Ireland would stone each other to death? Yes...there has been isolated incidents of this sort in Britain. But I don't believe that you can justifiably tar all Muslims with the sme brush. There are atrocious things going on all over the world in case you hadn't noticed. Many of these atrocities are even being carried out by non-Muslims! Imagine that!

What are your own views on the subject anyway? Or are you waiting until you have another question just for me to open a new topic?
 
Ammonium Nitrate

As for Amonium Nitrate being available in the US, did you know it's available here in Europe and a derivative can be found right here in Ireland?

"Ammonium nitrate fertilizer is used in 12 WesternEuropean countries. Ireland has banned the sale of ammonium nitrate fertilizer. The substitute fertilizer product used in Ireland has been altered to make terrorist devices by individuals with malicious, criminal intent."

[broken link removed]
 
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