The "Poverty Trap" budget

Sunny said:

Private education is no different to private health insurance. The problem in this country is we do everything arseways trying to please everyone. There should not be a two tier system in primary or secondary level education. Wealth or place of birth should not dictate the type of education a child gets. The problem I have is the amount of money the state pours into third level education. This money would be better spent on younger children getting a top quality second level education. If you want to go to third level, you or your parents should pay for it. And let the third level colleges compete against each other. Good luck to them.

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How would stop parents paying for evening and/or weekend grinds?
Why penalise parents who choose to prioritise their child’s education?

The real disparity happens at early primary school level, not second or third level.
Children whose parents are in a position to help them with their homework and who value education are at an automatic advantage.
Schools in areas that are socially disadvantaged are at a huge disadvantage. These schools need smaller class sizes, breakfast clubs, homework clubs, more special needs support but they need it most for children in infants and up to second and third class. If a child who can’t rely on their parents for help has fallen behind by second class they won’t catch up.

I don’t think the primary school budget should be cut but I do think teachers wages should be cut so that we can employ more teachers and provide the necessary supports. I’ve got the quaint notion that public services should be run for primary benefit of the public.

Purple said:

How would stop parents paying for evening and/or weekend grinds?
Why penalise parents who choose to prioritise their child’s education?

The real disparity happens at early primary school level, not second or third level.
Children whose parents are in a position to help them with their homework and who value education are at an automatic advantage.
Schools in areas that are socially disadvantaged are at a huge disadvantage. These schools need smaller class sizes, breakfast clubs, homework clubs, more special needs support but they need it most for children in infants and up to second and third class. If a child who can’t rely on their parents for help has fallen behind by second class they won’t catch up.

I don’t think the primary school budget should be cut but I do think teachers wages should be cut so that we can employ more teachers and provide the necessary supports. I’ve got the quaint notion that public services should be run for primary benefit of the public.

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Not stopping anyone paying from grinds if they want to. Just like I am not stopping them paying for all those extra curricular activities if they want. I am talking about the fact that a two tier system exists for basic education depending on wealth and the area you come from. There are some marvellous 'public schools' and there some average 'private schools' but a kid from inner city Dublin might be as smart as a kid born in Dalkey but is not getting the same experience at school as a child attending Wesley College. There are also still huge disparities between schools at second level.

The idea of free third level education is nonsence for numerous reasons including that not everyone has to go or is suitable for third level education. Now we have numerous colleges/universities offering numerous pointless courses just so we can say look at all the people who attend third level in Ireland. It has also done nothing to improve access for people from disadvantaged areas. The whole sector has become bloated and uncompetitive because they got lazy relying on State funds. Money should be taken out of that sector and poured back into primary education so every kid gets a good start. Stop conning students with this registration fee and bring back proper third level fees and student loans. The degree will pay for itself or so they say.

Sunny said:

Not stopping anyone paying from grinds if they want to. Just like I am not stopping them paying for all those extra curricular activities if they want. I am talking about the fact that a two tier system exists for basic education depending on wealth and the area you come from. There are some marvellous 'public schools' and there some average 'private schools' but a kid from inner city Dublin might be as smart as a kid born in Dalkey but is not getting the same experience at school as a child attending Wesley College. There are also still huge disparities between schools at second level.

The idea of free third level education is nonsence for numerous reasons including that not everyone has to go or is suitable for third level education. Now we have numerous colleges/universities offering numerous pointless courses just so we can say look at all the people who attend third level in Ireland. It has also done nothing to improve access for people from disadvantaged areas. The whole sector has become bloated and uncompetitive because they got lazy relying on State funds. Money should be taken out of that sector and poured back into primary education so every kid gets a good start. Stop conning students with this registration fee and bring back proper third level fees and student loans. The degree will pay for itself or so they say.

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I agree completely about third level fees; the state should provide free education for children. 3rd level students are adults.

I also agree that there is major educational disparity between (for example) Dalkey and West Finglas but I disagree that the problem is private schools. The two tier system is alive and well but the divide is not between private and public, it’s between public and public. Wealth of the locality (and corresponding ability of the school to fund-raise), social and economic demographic of the catchment area, attitude and education level of the parents and attitude to education amongst the pier-group are the factors that divide schools, not the fees they charge or don’t charge. Do you think that a Gaelscoil in Blackrock in Dublin faces the same problems as a school in Killenarden? Is the divide between that Gaelscoil in Blackrock and Blackrock College bigger than the gap between that Gaelscoil and Killenarden Community College?

I don’t understand why you don’t have a problem with parents sending their children to grinds (which don’t subsidise the public school system) and you do have a problem with parents sending their children to private schools (which do subsidise the public school system). Penalising parents who send their children to private schools just increases the cost to the state.

T McGibney said:

The quality of bus services on the Cavan-Dublin route has plummeted since the law was used to push private coach operators off the route and give Bus Eireann a monopoly. Although the M3 motorway has been built in the meantime, it now takes longer for buses to travel to and from Cavan and Dublin than it did 25 years ago when three or four competitors plied the route.

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Is there something special about the Cavan route? I thought competition was fairly open these days. There is certainly no shortage of private operators on other routes, and at least private route within Co Cavan; http://www.sillan.ie/index.php/bus-timetables

Chris said:

Irish teachers are already among the highest paid in Europe. Are you suggesting that Irish teachers are not fully unionized? By those argumentations Ireland should have one of the best systems.

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Strangely enough, selectively picking two of the five factors I mentioned will not give you a good result.

Chris said:

And how is supporting a two tier system negative for education in general?

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Because it promotes cross-generational inequity. Children of wealthy families get to pay for better education services, and therefore get better opportunities to create wealth, and therefore get to pay for better education for their families.

I went to a public school and it was pretty good. But one eye opening experience I had was spending a week in Leeson Street the winter before my leaving cert. I have to say, the teachers were amazing. If I had that physics teacher for the full two years, I'd have been as good as Einstein himself! Alas, the physics teacher I had in my public school believed that reading chapters from the book out loud was the way to go. We never saw the inside of a lab. And the guy didn't turn up on a regular basis.
This would not be tolerated in a private school. This is the attitude we need to bring to public schools if we are truly to have a one tier education system that is top class. Otherwise we'll end up with a one tier system that is just rubbish and we'll have cut off our nose to spite our face. A top class one tier system where good teachers are rewarded and bad teachers are retrained or let go - I'd vote for that.

shnaek said:

i went to a public school and it was pretty good. But one eye opening experience i had was spending a week in leeson street the winter before my leaving cert. I have to say, the teachers were amazing. If i had that physics teacher for the full two years, i'd have been as good as einstein himself! Alas, the physics teacher i had in my public school believed that reading chapters from the book out loud was the way to go. We never saw the inside of a lab. And the guy didn't turn up on a regular basis.
This would not be tolerated in a private school. This is the attitude we need to bring to public schools if we are truly to have a one tier education system that is top class. otherwise we'll end up with a one tier system that is just rubbish and we'll have cut off our nose to spite our face. a top class one tier system where good teachers are rewarded and bad teachers are retrained or let go - i'd vote for that.

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+1

shnaek said:

I went to a public school and it was pretty good. But one eye opening experience I had was spending a week in Leeson Street the winter before my leaving cert. I have to say, the teachers were amazing. If I had that physics teacher for the full two years, I'd have been as good as Einstein himself! Alas, the physics teacher I had in my public school believed that reading chapters from the book out loud was the way to go. We never saw the inside of a lab. And the guy didn't turn up on a regular basis.

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Just wondering, you're not a former pupil of St Pat's Cavan, by any chance?

shnaek said:

I went to a public school and it was pretty good. But one eye opening experience I had was spending a week in Leeson Street the winter before my leaving cert. I have to say, the teachers were amazing. If I had that physics teacher for the full two years, I'd have been as good as Einstein himself! Alas, the physics teacher I had in my public school believed that reading chapters from the book out loud was the way to go. We never saw the inside of a lab. And the guy didn't turn up on a regular basis.
This would not be tolerated in a private school. This is the attitude we need to bring to public schools if we are truly to have a one tier education system that is top class. Otherwise we'll end up with a one tier system that is just rubbish and we'll have cut off our nose to spite our face. A top class one tier system where good teachers are rewarded and bad teachers are retrained or let go - I'd vote for that.

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WOW shnaek, fantastic post..
You have hit the nail on the head..well done.Defo my post of 2011.
Until teachers suffer the consequences of their actions nothing will change.
Take Lesson St as an example, there is no way that any teacher would get away with that behavior.
However the principles hands are tied,they have no way of reprimanding a teacher..

My daughters class were all preforming badly in physics, some of them were "A" students,the parents went to the principal and were told there was nothing he could do,and we should speak to the teacher directly.

At a parent teacher meeting, I asked the teacher if she could tell me why my daughter wasnt getting a good grade,and was told that she needed to put in more work,( not true)and that I wasnt to worry as after the easter break the girls show a vast improvement.

Turns out ,the parents send their kids to grinds during the easter break and hence their grades improved!!

However it is the fact that the teachers wont be sacked/disiplined or be seen to be that is the real reason why there is a two tier system..

Yes I do know that teachers can apparently be sacked, however..Anyone care to give a figure for the number of teachers that have been sacked?? I doubt that any of them would be unless it involved murder/sexual or drug use..

shnaek said:

I went to a public school and it was pretty good. But one eye opening experience I had was spending a week in Leeson Street the winter before my leaving cert. I have to say, the teachers were amazing. If I had that physics teacher for the full two years, I'd have been as good as Einstein himself! Alas, the physics teacher I had in my public school believed that reading chapters from the book out loud was the way to go. We never saw the inside of a lab. And the guy didn't turn up on a regular basis.
This would not be tolerated in a private school.

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Funnily enough, I had a similar experience at the Institute - brilliant maths teacher in my case. We had a dreadful maths teacher - only people who did grinds got an honour in honours maths.

But I'm not so sure that this isn't tolerated at private schools. From anecdotal discussions with current and recent past pupils at Castleknock College, Terenure College and Blackrock College, their general feedback on teachers wasn't that different from my CBS experience - most teachers were OK, a couple were brilliant and a couple were duds.

shnaek said:

A top class one tier system where good teachers are rewarded and bad teachers are retrained or let go - I'd vote for that.

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Me too.

thedaras said:

However the principles hands are tied,they have no way of reprimanding a teacher..

My daughters class were all preforming badly in physics, some of them were "A" students,the parents went to the principal and were told there was nothing he could do,and we should speak to the teacher directly.

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Either you have a terrible principal, or there was a communications mix up here. The complaints procedure for most schools says that the first port of call for any complaint is the teacher concerned. I wonder if this is what the principal was trying to communicate. There is an escalation procedure if complaints dont get resolved by the teacher - first to the principal, and then to the Board of Management.

Complainer said:

The complaints procedure for most schools says that the first port of call for any complaint is the teacher concerned. I wonder if this is what the principal was trying to communicate. There is an escalation procedure if complaints dont get resolved by the teacher - first to the principal, and then to the Board of Management.

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I think what Complainer has highlighted is very good. If you feel like you are not getting somewhere then you can ask the principal to formally walk you through the complaints process. At least this way something has to be done and you should expect something in writing after the process has been completed. Would that be reasonable from what are aware of Complainer?

I have used this technique myself in other situations and it works quite well!

Firefly said:

Would that be reasonable from what are aware of Complainer?

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Yes, very reasonable. Here's the agreed procedure for community schools;

[broken link removed]

Complainer said:

Yes, very reasonable. Here's the agreed procedure for community schools;

[broken link removed]

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Thanks for that. I note though that the Board of Management seems to be the final decider for any complaints. I would have thought if agreement was still not reached here the Dept of Education would get involved?


4.1 If the Board of Management considers the complaint is not substantiated, the Teacher and the Complainant should be so informed within 3 days of the Board of Management meeting.

4.4 The decision of the Board of Management shall be final subject to section 4.5.
4.5. In the event of the complaint being upheld the Teacher will have recourse to Trade Union and Management agreements, where they exist, but all disciplinary procedures undertaken by the Board of Management will proceed in accordance with the principles of natural justice.

Firefly said:

Thanks for that. I note though that the Board of Management seems to be the final decider for any complaints. I would have thought if agreement was still not reached here the Dept of Education would get involved?

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Don't think so - the BoM own the school, so they have final responsibility. There is an appeals process to the Dept around refusal of a place, but in general, the BoM is the final word.

Complainer said:

Don't think so - the BoM own the school, so they have final responsibility. There is an appeals process to the Dept around refusal of a place, but in general, the BoM is the final word.

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If it's a Catholic school then they own the school. You can write to the Archbishop (I kid you not) .

Complainer said:

Don't think so - the BoM own the school, so they have final responsibility. There is an appeals process to the Dept around refusal of a place, but in general, the BoM is the final word.

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I must say, I'm quite surprised at this as the Dept of Education pays the bills so to speak. It really does make the choosing the right school for parents all the more important.

It must be quite difficult to enforce standards or drive change if the Dept has to deal with different owners for each school.

Firefly said:

Chris, the problem I have with this is that the likelyhood of the teachers setting up a school to attract some or even all of the 14 pupils is remote. It simply would not pay. If the existing school had to rely on vouchers (the same cash value per child) they too would close their doors. The effect I imagine would be fewer, larger schools in urban areas. I could see that working well in countries predominately based on large cities, but apart from Dublin and to a much lesser extent Cork and Limerick, we have a largely dispersed rural population. How would they be educated? Don't get me wrong...I am all in favour of privatisation where possible, but perhaps in this case the voucher system may not be ideal?

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OK, I see where you are coming from. From what I understand in the Swedish system, public schools are not solely dependent on the income from vouchers, so in your example the small country school would still exist as it is subsidized by the state (technically it does not compete on the same terms financially as a rival private school). What has happened in Sweden is that as larger public schools, where parents have been unhappy with the service provided, have lost pupils, the state has looked at trying to improve them and if this does not reversed the trend then the school has been shut down. It is by any means not a perfect competition system, but it greatly improves choice without a reduction in existing services that are not warranted by bad performance.

Sunny said:

Private education is no different to private health insurance. The problem in this country is we do everything arseways trying to please everyone. There should not be a two tier system in primary or secondary level education. Wealth or place of birth should not dictate the type of education a child gets.

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This I don't agree with. I do not believe that the two tier system is making the public system worse and thus disadvantaging the poor.

Sunny said:

The problem I have is the amount of money the state pours into third level education. This money would be better spent on younger children getting a top quality second level education. If you want to go to third level, you or your parents should pay for it. And let the third level colleges compete against each other. Good luck to them.

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This I absolutely agree with. It would also result in a huge reduction of the amount of wasters going to college. I saw many of them when I went.

Complainer said:

Strangely enough, selectively picking two of the five factors I mentioned will not give you a good result.

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If you want to model ourselves on the best education system in Europe, go to Finland. Very, very few private schools, just well trained and well paid fully unionised teachers who are given the freedom to do what they are good at - educate.

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So your five points are:
1) few private schools
I am certain that the number of private schools in Finland is not restricted, so this is not something that can be actively achieved through law or policy.
2) well trained
Are teachers in Ireland badly trained? I wouldn't say that this is true.
3) well paid
Irish teachers are among the highest paid in Europe
4) fully unionized
I have to meet a teacher that is not a union member
5) freedom to educate
I am not sure what exactly you are referring to here, but if this means giving teachers more freedom to taylor the curriculum as they see fit then I am all for it as a point of improvement.

Other than that, 3 of the 4 factors that can be influenced are already apparent in Ireland. I do not think that these are the secret ingredients to a good education system.

Complainer said:

Because it promotes cross-generational inequity. Children of wealthy families get to pay for better education services, and therefore get better opportunities to create wealth, and therefore get to pay for better education for their families.

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Complainer said:

But I'm not so sure that this isn't tolerated at private schools. From anecdotal discussions with current and recent past pupils at Castleknock College, Terenure College and Blackrock College, their general feedback on teachers wasn't that different from my CBS experience - most teachers were OK, a couple were brilliant and a couple were duds.

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I'm a bit confused with these two statements. First you say that rich families get perpetually richer because they get a better education through private schools than poor families, but then you say that the benefit from private schools is not much better than from public schools based on feedback on teachers.
The solution is not to force everyone into an inferior system, but rather create competition between the two systems. Let's also not forget that those rich people, let's call them the top 5%, pay 40% of the income taxes that pay for the public system.

Chris said:

OK, I see where you are coming from. From what I understand in the Swedish system, public schools are not solely dependent on the income from vouchers, so in your example the small country school would still exist as it is subsidized by the state (technically it does not compete on the same terms financially as a rival private school). What has happened in Sweden is that as larger public schools, where parents have been unhappy with the service provided, have lost pupils, the state has looked at trying to improve them and if this does not reversed the trend then the school has been shut down. It is by any means not a perfect competition system, but it greatly improves choice without a reduction in existing services that are not warranted by bad performance.

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That makes much more sense to, thanks for expanding. A potential downside I see though would be that the improvements (that would I have no doubt) accrue to the larger, urban schools where competition existed ,would result in relatively inferior level of education provided to the country school with 14 children. This is more than likely the case at present anyway (multiple ages groups in the same class and little competition between the teachers themselves) and you can't just spend a fortune on creating a competing school for competition's sake.

Chris said:

So your five points are:
1) few private schools
I am certain that the number of private schools in Finland is not restricted, so this is not something that can be actively achieved through law or policy.
2) well trained
Are teachers in Ireland badly trained? I wouldn't say that this is true.
3) well paid
Irish teachers are among the highest paid in Europe
4) fully unionized
I have to meet a teacher that is not a union member
5) freedom to educate
I am not sure what exactly you are referring to here, but if this means giving teachers more freedom to taylor the curriculum as they see fit then I am all for it as a point of improvement.

Other than that, 3 of the 4 factors that can be influenced are already apparent in Ireland. I do not think that these are the secret ingredients to a good education system.

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Seeing as you've got your very first point wrong (private schools not restricted), I don't really have the time or inclination to help you to develop an understanding of the facts. So let's save each other a bit of time. I'm not an education expert. You're not an education expert. We're not going to solve the problems of Ireland's education system with a few posts on a bulletin board.

Chris said:

I'm a bit confused with these two statements. First you say that rich families get perpetually richer because they get a better education through private schools than poor families, but then you say that the benefit from private schools is not much better than from public schools based on feedback on teachers.

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You have a flawed assumption that earning opportunities are directly related to economic achievement. In my experience, earning opportunities are linked to the name and status of the school as to academic achievement.

Chris said:

Let's also not forget that those rich people, let's call them the top 5%, pay 40% of the income taxes that pay for the public system.

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Wrong. It's not income taxes that pay for the public system - it is ALL taxes, including VAT, customs and excise, motor tax. capital gains tax, corporation tax etc etc.

Chris said:

The solution is not to force everyone into an inferior system, but rather create competition between the two systems.

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Not the one-trick-pony answer-for-all-seasons competition gig again. How about instead of a Pavlovian response, we look at what actually works in other countries, such as the Finnish system - which is producing the best education outcomes in the world. They don't have or need competition to produce the best educated students in the world.

johnd said:

Lets get real here, people send their kids to private schools so they won't have to mix with the average Joe Soap who might live in council houses or in less affluent areas and who might speak with a "common" accent. Even if the average parent won the lotto in the morning and presented themselves to the local private school they would be refused admission because they wouldn't be considered to have the right background.

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That is complete and utter bull$hit. I come from a very average, middle class, Dublin north side family. Both of my parents were teachers, but they came from working class backgrounds in Drumcondra. My sisters and I were sent to posh, private schools in Dublin 2 because my mother thought that we would get a better education there. Social snobbery never came into it. End of story. They scrimped and saved, never had holidays and drove 12 year old rust bucket cars until they fell apart, so that we could do so.

Did I feel out of place there surrounded by all the Hurray Henrietta's and Ross O'Carroll Kelly wannabees? Nope. Sure they were there, but at least half of my class mates came from backgrounds very similar to mind. Just your average working Joe and Josephine doing what they could to give their kids the best start in life that they could. I fit in just fine, and had no problem being accepted by my class mates, teachers or the nuns who ran the place.

The school that I went to was in town, and had pupils from all over Dublin. As result, my closest school friends were from all over the place....Ashbourne, Glenageary, Malahide, the Navan Road, Ballsbridge (*gasp*....oh the shame) Cabra, Phibsboro, Bray etc etc. Not easy places to to get to and from for a kid in Glasnevin. So after school, weekends and on holidays my sisters and I socialized with the local kids, who went to all kinds of schools in our area, including one rather rough national school that locals joked was a feeder school for Mountjoy. My parents had no problem with that as long as we kept bringing home good school reports and didn't overly act the maggot. I highly suggest that you get that over sized chip off your shoulder.

beffers said:

That is complete and utter bull$hit. I come from a very average, middle class, Dublin north side family. Both of my parents were teachers, but they came from working class backgrounds in Drumcondra. My sisters and I were sent to posh, private schools in Dublin 2 because my mother thought that we would get a better education there. Social snobbery never came into it. End of story. They scrimped and saved, never had holidays and drove 12 year old rust bucket cars until they fell apart, so that we could do so.

Did I feel out of place there surrounded by all the Hurray Henrietta's and Ross O'Carroll Kelly wannabees? Nope. Sure they were there, but at least half of my class mates came from backgrounds very similar to mind. Just your average working Joe and Josephine doing what they could to give their kids the best start in life that they could. I fit in just fine, and had no problem being accepted by my class mates, teachers or the nuns who ran the place.

The school that I went to was in town, and had pupils from all over Dublin. As result, my closest school friends were from all over the place....Ashbourne, Glenageary, Malahide, the Navan Road, Ballsbridge (*gasp*....oh the shame) Cabra, Phibsboro, Bray etc etc. Not easy places to to get to and from for a kid in Glasnevin. So after school, weekends and on holidays my sisters and I socialized with the local kids, who went to all kinds of schools in our area, including one rather rough national school that locals joked was a feeder school for Mountjoy. My parents had no problem with that as long as we kept bringing home good school reports and didn't overly act the maggot. I highly suggest that you get that over sized chip off your shoulder.

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I must say I love posts like this...they make me warm inside. The single biggest responsibility a parent has, IMO, is to give their children the best start in life and it looks like your parents have done this. I'm glad that you "fit in just fine, and had no problem being accepted by my class mates, teachers or the nuns who ran the place." In fact your parents and yourself if anything should have been more respected as it is obviously a lot easier for wealthy parents to send their children to the same school.

Sadly, it seems that there is a stereotype that parents who send their children to private schools are either loaded or doing so for ego/vanity reasons. I would bet that the vast majority just want the best for their children and are happy to forego things that other parents are not - and that's no disrespect to those parents..each to their own...people have different priorities.