"The one million suckers who are paying for bailout have taken enough"

[Brendan Burgess]

Good opinion piece by Charlie Weston here:

The one million suckers who are paying for bailout have taken enough

"the political agenda has been hijacked by those who want to abolish any tax or charge that they don't like, and instead impose the costs on middle earners.


The betrayal of middle Ireland is galling.

Throughout the near collapse of the financial system, it has been ordinary middle-income families that have rescued the situation.

Tax-paying, education-promoting and law-abiding, the sat-upon middle-income families have been the stout defenders of the system.

Who paid for the outrageous bailout of the banks, the shoring up of the public finances, and the cost of keeping the social welfare system largely in tact?

The cost has been enormous.

Most middle-income people paid their water charges, realising it is unpalatable but necessary to fund vital infrastructure, and broaden the tax base."

 

[Brendan Burgess]

He raises a very interesting point.

There isn't any political party which strongly advocates the majority opinion in this country which is law abiding and tax paying. The people who understand that water has to be paid for and should be paid for according to usage. These are the people who are paying for the very high rates of social welfare which discourages people from working.

It's been raised elsewhere on askaboutmoney. People who are paying into pensions now, might well find that it was a waste of money because the OAP is unaffordable and will probably end up being means tested. Those who don't bother working and don't contribute to the Social Insurance Fund will have nothing, so they will get a pension, whereas the majority who have worked and who have contributed to a pension fund will get nothing from the state despite having contributed to the fund for years.

Most mortgage holders are responsible and pay their mortgage in full. Many responsible mortgage holders who are in financial difficulty continue to pay as much as they can under very difficult circumstances. But I estimate that around 20,000 people are taking advantage of the system and paying nothing when they could afford to pay something. The responsible borrowers are paying higher mortgage rates , in part due to the cost of subsidising those who won't pay their mortgages.

Brendan

 

[odyssey06]

Renua?

 

[staff]

That would be why they didn't get a single seat in the election - not even Lucinda managed to get re-elected.

 

[44brendan]

The middle class revolt!! A bit like being savaged by a sheep. As in most of us in that bracket have neither the time nor the inclination to march on the streets or unite on issues that effect us far more severely that a multitude of water charges.
Those of us who pay pensions and health insurance are viewed by the Socialist parties as being elitist and queue skippers. the realism as in who predominately supports the health system and the SW system are probably those who benefit least from it is never stated.
Historically we voted for FF/FG who have consistently let us down by pandering more to the left leaning voters.
The "high earner" badge is also an indication of a fleece to be sheared rather than a high contributor to existing tax revenue.

Like many others I do not begrudge the tax I pay and I fully support the need for a major input to social housing and HSE reform. However I totally emphasise with the points made by Charlie Weston in this article and the fact that many of us are the forgotten people by the majority of the parties in their pandering to the electorate.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Those of us who pay pensions and health insurance are viewed by the Socialist parties as being elitist and queue skippers.

Historically we voted for FF/FG who have consistently let us down by pandering more to the left leaning voters.

I agree with you but I can't understand why FG in particular panders to the welfare classes? The constituency of responsible, law abiding people, must be larger than the irresponsible who won't pay their bills and who want to depend on welfare rather than work.

I can understand Labour pandering to them, although it didn't do Labour any good in the election.

The people on the water protests were never going to vote for Labour, never mind Fine Gael, so why did the parties pander to them?

Brendan

 

[T McGibney]

I agree with you but I can't understand why FG in particular panders to the welfare classes? The constituency of responsible, law abiding people, must be larger than the irresponsible who won't pay their bills and who want to depend on welfare rather than work.

I can understand Labour pandering to them, although it didn't do Labour any good in the election.

The people on the water protests were never going to vote for Labour, never mind Fine Gael, so why did the parties pander to them?

Hi Brendan

The main parties pander to them in the hope of getting their voters' no. 2, no. 3, no. 4 or no. 5 preference votes in the next election. The Irish PRSTV system means that a party that doesn't attempt to pander to all sections of the electorate will have limited success.

 

[Firefly]

People who are paying into pensions now, might well find that it was a waste of money because the OAP is unaffordable and will probably end up being means tested.

Welcome to my world!

 

[monagt]

="The people on the water protests were never going to vote for Labour, never mind Fine Gael, so why did the parties pander to them?

Not so. While the Shinners and Left Loonies were the most visible, a lot of the silent majority attended the marches.

Many who had voted for FG/Lab in 2011 and expected things to be different, transparent, no cronies, a fair recovery, etc., vented there anger and frustration while waiting for the General Election.

FF can ignore them at their peril. (Look at FG/Lab).

LPT is just a tax, for example, it was supposed to be 80% local and 20% for poorer counties for locval services (I am open to correction her) and has this happened - NO (some has been hived off for Irish Water)

IW was incompetently and expensively set up to be sold off (to 1 of Ireland richest men, no names mentioned here).

8p on a liter of petrol would bring in the same money (M Martin Dail)

I think this thread is narrowly focused and do not agree with the sentiments expressed.

 

[Sunny]

Hmmmm. I can honestly say no political party represents me. I lost my job during the recession. I got one again but am earning over 30% less. I saved hard into a pension fund since my early 20's but when I needed money to help my family, I couldn't access it even after paying tax due but apparently the State had no problem dipping their greedy fingers into it. I am being charged water charges but the water turns my wife's hair green and my appliances are destroyed. Rang Irish water and not their problem.

I am not a first time buyer but am in a property not suitable for my family. Nobody is talking about helping me. Not looking for a handout but I do expect some common sense.

Have paid health insurance since I was a teenager and never once claimed. Still goes up at multiples of inflation. Like a lot of families, we had two cars but one is gone because cost of insurance makes it unaffordable.

On the other side, I get over 50% off the cost of my public transport but someone on half my salary will only get 21%. I get twice the pension relief as someone earning half my salary. I get the same child benefit as someone not working and also Michael O'leary.

People talk about right wing and left wing politics but it is all rubbish. None of us live lives that always suit the one camp. When I work, I want to pay less tax. When I was struggling, I appreciated with all my heart the limited support given to me by the State. How am I supposed to vote?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

When I was struggling, I appreciated with all my heart the limited support given to me by the State.

This is another outrageous outcome of our welfare system.

When you lost your job, you got Jobseekers' Benefit for 9 months. You probably got around €20 a week more than someone who had never worked a day in their life. And yet you had paid Pay Related Social Insurance.

The PRSI contributions should go into a fund in the person's name. When they need to claim social welfare for unemployment or disability or pension, then the amount should be determined by the amount in their fund. If you have worked for 30 years and have had PRSI of 14.75% contributed to your fund, you should get much higher social welfare than someone who has worked for only a few years.

Brendan

 

[Protocol]

N
LPT is just a tax, for example, it was supposed to be 80% local and 20% for poorer counties for locval services (I am open to correction her) and has this happened - NO (some has been hived off for Irish Water)

LPT is a tax, yes, of course.

This has happened, you are corrected.

Some LPT collected from stronger counties is redistributed to weaker counties.

Read this:

http://www.environ.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/LocalGovernment/Administration/FileDownLoad,43581,en.pdf

 

[Protocol]

This is another outrageous outcome of our welfare system.

When you lost your job, you got Jobseekers' Benefit for 9 months. You probably got around €20 a week more than someone who had never worked a day in their life. And yet you had paid Pay Related Social Insurance.

Brendan

Brendan,

you won't be happy to hear that JSB = JSA = 188 per week.

Indeed, the long-term unemployed get more, as they qualify for the bonus.

We are unique in paying more welfare to LT unemployed, rather than ST unemployed.

 

[cremeegg]

Sorry guys but this is the stupidest thread ever. The election is over, you were hammered. Get used to it.

For my part, I want nothing to do with public provision. I will fund my kids education, I will save for my own retirement and I will buy my own health insurance.

I will pay what tax I must, and take whatever public pension I get but the idea of co-operative social provision in Ireland is dead.

 

[monagt]

Sorry guys but this is the stupidest thread ever. The election is over, you were hammered. Get used to it.

+1

 

[Delboy]

Not so. While the Shinners and Left Loonies were the most visible, a lot of the silent majority attended the marches.

'a lot' of the silent majority didn't march. So thats not true.
At most, 100k marched on the biggest day. The population is close to 5m. Over 70% have paid at least 1 of their water bills thus far.

I agree there is no party out there for those working, saving, buying a house etc. It's all pandering to the lowest common denominator.
And yet what are FG to do....they got hammered in the election. People seem to have forgotten very quickly the trouble we were in just 5 years ago.

With regards to Social Welfare. We talk about the 'Scandinavian models' all the time....isn't it the case over there that if you lose your job, you get up to 75% of your salary for X period of time.
Here as mentioned above, your treated no different than the fella who's never got out of bed before mid-day in his life

 

[odyssey06]

I think we have a lot of people who are directly or indirectly dependent on the state in one form or another.
- Farmers reliant on CAP, and Ireland's agricultural sector is relatively large
- Civil service and semi-state, semi-state sector in particular is significant
- Students
- Pensioners on fixed incomes
- Long term unemployed

Of those who are working, a significant number are calculated as net beneficiaries of the tax\benefits system (though this may or may not be apparent to them). Also considering the PR system we have, you need a coalition of voters or parties.

Looking at other conservative parties in English they have the advantage of first past the post, and also, they aren't trying to fly right wing on one engine - usually one or more of "tough on law and order", "strong on foreign policy", "standing up for traditional values" helps to get them over the line.

- If FG announced any new initiatives on crime for the election, I didn't hear them. They seem to think being tough means not accepting SF as coalition partners. If they positioned themselves as serious about law and order, they would be pushing an open door. There seems to be concern that the media will present anyone taking that line as some sort of fascist. Look at the trashing of Renua, clearly it's very hard for a new small party to break through that media barrier. But for FG? All it would need is conviction.
I don't get the feeling that the current FG leadership, either out of personal disposition, or because they are in the media echo chamber, have any appetite for taking that position. If law and order was a priority for you, could you vote for FG? Alan Shatter went from one shambles to the next. If Frances Fitzgerald didn't turn up for work, how long before anyone would notice?
You could throw €500 million at the health service and barely make a dent. Imagine the traction you could get from €500 million for policing, prisons, courts etc?

- Traditional values... FG handled the abortion issue so adeptly it led to Renua who got 2%+ vote share. 2% doesn't seem like a lot, but 2% here, 2% there and bang, you're not getting candidates over the line in the last seat.
In Dublin Bay North, Richard Bruton and Terence Flanagan running for FG together might just have pulled off the two seats (counting Bruton's surplus, and the votes the 2 FG candidates and Flanagan got).

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Look at the trashing of Renua, clearly it's very hard for a new small party to break through that media barrier.

Their flat tax proposal was poorly presented. When challenged that this would mean higher taxes on the lower paid and lower taxes on the higher paid, they said that they would protect the lower paid though some complex income transfer system. They should have just come out straight - "Jobseekers Allowance is too high; tax rates on the lower paid are too low and tax rates on the higher paid are too high. Yes, our flat rate system will result in a widening of the tax base." That would have helped them.

They were not going to get votes from the welfare classes anyway, so they should not have pandered to them.

The quality of the Renua candidates was very poor and the message was not different enough from Fine Gael.

Brendan

 

[monagt]

'a lot' of the silent majority didn't march. So thats not true.
At most, 100k marched on the biggest day. The population is close to 5m. Over 70% have paid at least 1 of their water bills thus far.

I agree there is no party out there for those working, saving, buying a house etc. It's all pandering to the lowest common denominator.
And yet what are FG to do....they got hammered in the election. People seem to have forgotten very quickly the trouble we were in just 5 years ago

Over 70%...........???........At least 1 water bill paid.........those who cancelled DD's and accounts are still counted.........is this Pixie land?

FG did what they always did........(ie) became more arrogant, more cronyism, corrupt and out of touch in 5 years than FF did in 16 years (the reason why they never got a second term, Kenny will be first if gets Taoiseach this time) and why we ended up with FF in power so long.

Don't assume this response is support for FF who ruined the country and should have been dismantled as a party and now seen as the only choice by many to keep FG out.

Now to the 100K marching: While we can't take the 100K as a representative sample for many reasons, we can assume that the opposition to Irish Water is more that 100k out of a population of 5M.
Perhaps someone would have the multiple that Governments use to assess the true opposition based on the numbers marching.

A second election should be held and FG will lose more seats, FF did not see the turnaround in their support and failed to run enough candidates to hoover up the final seats in many constituencies, so another FF Gov (God help us).

 

[Delboy]

Colm McCarthy just now on The Pat Kenny Show now:
In Ireland, 23% of households are totally dependant on the State for all income/housing etc
The closest in the EU are Belgium and the UK on 13%