The meaning of Art 1, 2 & 3 in the Constitution - The Nation

[WolfeTone]

By that definition the "Nation" is the area under the jurisdiction of our sovereign government. Oops!

In all of this, what Art 1, 2 & 3 do now is remove the authority of the State to enact and administer laws in the territory of NI and instead bestows such a entitlement to all of the people born (save 27th amendment) to determine the political and economic future in whatever form they choose. Currently, that is in the form of two separate States, one governed by a foreign State.

Double Ooops!

The Irish nation, in its entirity, has chosen a political settlement that facilitates those who choose to remain under British jurisdiction.
It is open to all of us to revert back entirely under British rule, to unify the country as a sovereign independent state, to keep the partitionist status quo, or other.
It is open to all people of the Irish nation to determine our future

Perfectly compatible with the Constitution

 

[Purple]

You lasted a hour!

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in again!

 

[Leo]

You are trying to peddle some stuff that The Nation is conceptual, but The State isn't.

The state has a jurisdiction, legislation, legal recognition, and borders, the nation does not.

 

[WolfeTone]

The state has a jurisdiction, legislation, legal recognition, and borders, the nation does not.

All of which are concepts. Perhaps dictionary definition will help

Nation

"a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory"

State

"a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government."

As forewarned earlier

Ok, we are in danger of falling into ambiguous genius of the GFA, it being all things to all people, so its possible we all have different interpretations

The crux of the matter that spawned this thread is the participation of Green Party members from NI having a say, or vote, on the proposed PFG for this State.

I think it is agreeable now that it does not amount to foreign interference, and no amount of wishing, or thinking it in the head, will make it so.

 

[Purple]

The state has a jurisdiction, legislation, legal recognition, and borders, the nation does not.

You're wasting your time, as am I.

 

[WolfeTone]

You're wasting your time, as am I.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I thought it useful to point out to you that Green party members in NI having a vote, or say, in the affairs of the party they are members of, does not amount to foreign interference.

 

[Leo]

You're wasting your time, as am I.

Agreed

 

[WolfeTone]

You're wasting your time, as am I.

Agreed. With imminent formation of the new government, with the Green Party, the only conclusion to deduce is that outside a motley crew of AAM posters, nobody, nobody has muttered as much as an utterance about foreign interference in our electoral process.
Truly, a waste of my time.

 

[WolfeTone]

The British are ahead of the game.. since 1949 in fact.

Ireland Act, 1949

"It is hereby declared that, notwithstanding that the Republic of Ireland is not part of His Majesty’s dominions, the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country for the purposes of any law in force in any part of the United Kingdom"

 

[Peanuts20]

Was our constitutional claim on Northern Ireland not removed as part of the Good Friday agreement and subsequent referendums? Therefore the Const only applies to the 26 counties whilst recognising the right of the people of Ireland to a united Ireland by peaceful means.

Do I consider Northern Ireland to be a foreign country?, yes. After all, the majority of it's citizens consider themselves as belonging to a foreign country called the UK. If you believe in Democracy then you have to respect their views.

Should the Green Party members in Northern Ireland have a say in our Govt, no, absolutely not. It's the same for the Sinn Fein Ard Comhraile.

I can imagine the furore if the SDLP were asking FF members in Kerry to vote on a deal in Stormont.

 

[Leo]

Was our constitutional claim on Northern Ireland not removed as part of the Good Friday agreement and subsequent referendums?

To the rest of us it was, but Wolfie somehow reads it differently.

 

[WolfeTone]

Was our constitutional claim on Northern Ireland not removed as part of the Good Friday agreement and subsequent referendums?

It was the State's constitutional claim that was removed, ie the claim of our government to have statutory power to enact and administer laws.

Instead the constitutional claim over the entire territory of island is vested in the people. Yes, it is all ambiguous, aspirational and can mean all things to all people.
As comedian Patrick Kielty noted "it allows Irish people to be Irish and British people to be British"
In way shape or form, under the Irish constitution, could NI ever be considered a foreign country. SF, SDLP, FF and without doubt, the majority of Irish people would not have bought into it. No different to Unionism buying into territorial claim by the Irish State.

Do I consider Northern Ireland to be a foreign country?, yes. After all, the majority of it's citizens consider themselves as belonging to a foreign country called the UK.

That is your perogative. But the territory making up NI is not recognised as a foreign country by the Constitution. NI is a separate State.

Should the Green Party members in Northern Ireland have a say in our Govt, no, absolutely not

Why? The PfG promises that our Govt will have a say about lots of things in NI - assuming you have actually read or looked at it?
A guaranteed way to collapse government formation between FF/FG and Greens, is to deny the Green Party its right to makes its own decisions in the manner in which it is constituted to do.
I can only assume, if a government is formed, and its looking likely, that you have reservations over its legitimacy given the manner in which it is formed?

 

[Purple]

This is like talking to a creationist about evolution.
Everyone bar Wolfie is talking about the legal position but he's conflating aspiration and law.

 

[WolfeTone]

This is like talking to a creationist about evolution.
Everyone bar Wolfie is talking about the legal position but he's conflating aspiration and law.

I'm talking about both Purple. The constitutional claim to authorise the Dublin government to enact and administer law in NI was removed.
In its place, an aspirational, ambiguous claim over the territory, vested in the people, or, "The Nation" if you will.
What that is, is for each one of us in our own individual or collective sovereign to decide.

You, along with a handful of others, choose to decide that it equates to NI being a foreign country. That's your perogative.
I'm merely pointing out that under the Constitution, there is no provision for NI being recognised as a foreign country. There is recognition of two jurisdictions, two separate states.

It is clear, that neither FF/FG or anywhere else across the mainstream Irish political spectrum is there any notion of NI being considered a foreign country,
Such a mindset is out of the playbook of extremist, flag-waving, table-thumping politics, more commonly found in fringe republican / loyalist gangsters, and now in the pages of AAM.

I suggest you actually read the PfG, you may be alarmed to see the extent that it proposes the government of this State to involve itself in the social, economic and environmental affairs of NI.

 

[Peanuts20]

So NI is a separate state but not a separate country?? And I'm a "extremist, flag-waving, table-thumping politics, more commonly found in fringe republican / loyalist gangsters" ??? Gee thanks

Harsh and cold reality for die hard republicans is that the majority of people in Northern Ireland consider themselves living in a different country and a true democrat would respect the wishes and beliefs pf the majority.

We may have a moral obligation to support the minorty up there and a practical obligation to support shared services where it makes common sense for both sides but I have no say in Stormont so why should someone living in Coleraine have a say in the Dail?

 

[WolfeTone]

So NI is a separate state but not a separate country?? And I'm a "extremist, flag-waving, table-thumping politics, more commonly found in fringe republican / loyalist gangsters" ??? Gee thanks

I doubt somehow you are. But the politics of exclusion and division is the oxygen for these groups.
The politics of inclusion and co-operation will hopefully extinguish that bankrupt mentality.

true democrat would respect the wishes and beliefs pf the majority

As is occurring today.

I have no say in Stormont so why should someone living in Coleraine have a say in the Dail?

You could have a say if you were a member of political party that constituted itself on an All-Ireland basis and, such as Greens, and had elected members to that parliament, such as SF.

 

[WolfeTone]

We may have a moral obligation

Our government has legal obligations to participate and involve itself in the affairs of NI. See the British-Irish Agreement Act, 1999.

I don't think this thread needs to continue anymore. Nobody is putting forward any reasoned basis as to why members of Green Party in NI should be excluded from having a say in their own party's proposed participation in government with FF/FG, or any legal basis as to why NI be considered a foreign country.
The opposite has been shown why they are entitled to have that say.

 

[Leo]

or any legal basis as to why NI be considered a foreign country.

So you still haven't pointed to a single state (or country if you wish) who do not officially recognise NI as a separate state.

 

[Purple]

But the politics of exclusion and division is the oxygen for these groups.

No, claiming ownership of places that you have no legal entitlement to claim is the oxygen for these groups.
You can dance around it all you like and you can make a ridiculous attempt at projection in claiming that recognising the reality, as expressed through the democratic will of the majority of the people in both parts of this island, that Northern Ireland is part of the UK and therefore part of a foreign country is someone divisive and within the bailiwick of "extremist, flag-waving, table-thumping politics, more commonly found in fringe republican / loyalist gangsters" but that doesn't change reality, it just shows how far you are from it yourself.

Our government has legal obligations to participate and involve itself in the affairs of NI. See the British-Irish Agreement Act, 1999.

In a consultative capacity only.

I'm merely pointing out that under the Constitution, there is no provision for NI being recognised as a foreign country.

There is also no provision for Uganda being a foreign country nevertheless Uganda is a foreign country.

 

[WolfeTone]

claiming ownership of places that you have no legal entitlement to claim is the oxygen for these groups.

I agree, thankfully we have removed the authority of our government to claim it has the power to legislate and administer law. This was a hostile act in the eyes of unionism. We have taken such authority away from the State and vested it into the people of the island of Ireland. We have given the people living in the Irish State and living in the Northern Irish State the authority to determine the formation of our government, separately or collectively, our political and economic and cultural lives.

And there's you, troubled by some members of the Green Party having a say if their party should participate in government.

We got rid of the States territorial claim, just need to quash the bankrupt foreigner mindset, hostile language to Irish nationalism.

But if someone cannot see how Articles 1,2, and 3, actually makes provision for the age old economic, social, cultural, linguistic ties between everyone in Ireland and then cannot distinguish how somewhere like Uganda is foreign, then I have no hope of persuading otherwise.
Thankfully, such thought, it is contained in the fringes of Irish political thought, North and South. Let's hope it stays that way.

I'm out.