The meaning of Art 1, 2 & 3 in the Constitution - The Nation

[WolfeTone]

Care to quote that section? I can't seem to find it.

Suffice to say Article 1 of the Constitution lays out the rights of the Irish Nation.

Art 2 outlines who is entitled to be part of that nation.

But its Art 3 that opens up issue of the territory of Ireland. While it does not explicitly identify the geographical area or boundary of the island, I take we can agree that it implicitly refers to the geographical location internationally recognised as Ireland in its entirety? It is does not distinguish between 26 and 32 counties.

It goes on the mention "the diversity and traditions", which to my interpretation, only reinforces the whole of island theory considering the context upon which Article 3 was derived from.
It goes on to mention "to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland". This could mean anything, its open to interpretation, but implicit in it is the will to unite the people north and south, under one united legal entity - All-Ireland if you will.

The recognition of two separate jurisdictions is explicit in Article 3 which acknowledges the British states authority today in administering the law in NI.

It entitles anyone born on the island of Ireland to be part of a notional grouping of people! No more.

Yes, and such an entitlement, as per Article 1 bestows an inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right upon those born anywhere on the island to be Irish.
Such rights include Irish citizenship (save the 27th amendment requiring at least one Irish parent).

That is in no way a claim on any territory.

It is not an express claim on territory as it was prior to 1998 where the State claimed to have full legal jurisdiction over the area called Northern Ireland. But by affording rights and entitlements, to anyone born in the territory of NI, to full Irish citizenship, in my view amounts to an implicit territorial claim. In other words, in the eyes of the Irish constitution, NI is not foreign territory.
In fact, the Irish Constitution makes no provision for the existence of a territory called 'Northern Ireland'. It makes provision for existence and recognition of two jurisdictions.
The existence and recognition of the authority of British jurisdiction in Ireland, in Irish law, only came into being in the British-Irish Agreement Act, 1999, following the GFA. This is distinct from the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, which is British law bestowed on the Irish people.
Following the establishment of the 26 county Republic and Bunreacht na hEireann, there was no legal recognition of the Northern Irish state. Politically, it was a different matter, but legally, Northern Ireland did not exist, nor the British government have any lawful jurisdiction in Ireland, under Irish law.

The very fact that is is called out as the 'island' of Ireland is an acknowledgement of the existence of the two separate states.

It is an acknowledgement of two separate jurisdictions, without splitting hairs, yes, two separate states, but I have already acknowledged that.

 

[WolfeTone]

As we're talking constitutions and entities recognised internationally as states, in that context Northern Ireland absolutely is a foreign country.

Again, I'm asking you....do you think NI is a foreign country?

I accept that in the eyes of Irish, British and International law, that NI is a separate State to the RoI. It does not necessarily follow that I accept it as a foreign country, nor do I recognise it as such.
I recognise it, as implied in the Constitution, as one country, one nation, divided by two different jurisdictions, forming two States.

 

[Leo]

Suffice to say Article 1 of the Constitution lays out the rights of the Irish Nation.

Again with the nation, it's a completely separate concept.

Again, I'm asking you....do you think NI is a foreign country?

Already answered.

 

[WolfeTone]

Again with the nation, it's a completely separate concept.

A separate concept from what? The State? I agree. But this whole issue arose out of notion that members of the Green Party in NI, being able to influence or interfere in the election processes of this State. I'm simply of the view that it does not constitute a foreign interference by virtue of the rights, entitlements and recognition bestowed by the Constitution on Irish people residing in NI.

Already answered.

Well you answered in the context of what NI is recognized internationally . And I am agreeable, that in such a context, NI is a separate State. I am asking you, from a personal context, do you recognize NI as a foreign country or a foreign State?

 

[Purple]

Suffice to say Article 1 of the Constitution lays out the rights of the Irish Nation.

Art 2 outlines who is entitled to be part of that nation.

But its Art 3 that opens up issue of the territory of Ireland. While it does not explicitly identify the geographical area or boundary of the island, I take we can agree that it implicitly refers to the geographical location internationally recognised as Ireland in its entirety? It is does not distinguish between 26 and 32 counties.

It goes on the mention "the diversity and traditions", which to my interpretation, only reinforces the whole of island theory considering the context upon which Article 3 was derived from.
It goes on to mention "to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland". This could mean anything, its open to interpretation, but implicit in it is the will to unite the people north and south, under one united legal entity - All-Ireland if you will.

Yes, there’s an aspiration for a united Ireland. That has no standing in law. If it did there would have been no Good Friday Agreement. The constitution refers to the “Nation” as being the 32 counties of this island. That term has no standing in law. If it did it would amount to a territorial claim over Northern Ireland and there would be no Good Friday Agreement. The State is the 26 counties which make up the country of Ireland (incorrectly referred to as the Republic of Ireland by some people who have taken on board the British/Unionist way of speaking about us). Interestingly the Shinners never refer to this country as Ireland, instead calling it "The South" (the Saoth) or "down here" or "the 26 counties". If Mary Lou ever takes charge it will be interesting to see if she can take her oath of office.

The recognition of two separate jurisdictions is explicit in Article 3 which acknowledges the British states authority today in administering the law in NI.

That’s incorrect. It explicitly recognises the two jurisdictions on the island and states that the constitution only applied to the area which was governed by our Parliament prior to the enactment of the constitution. Having jurisdiction means that they can make the laws, not just administer them.

Yes, and such an entitlement, as per Article 1 bestows an inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right upon those born anywhere on the island to be Irish.
Such rights include Irish citizenship (save the 27th amendment requiring at least one Irish parent).

Nobody has an automatic right to Irish citizenship by sole virtue of where they were born. The people of Northern Ireland have the right to apply for Irish citizenship, that’s all. Just like people born in this country. If their parents were Irish citizens or if their parents were entitled to Irish citizenship then they are entitled to it. I don’t understand how the 27th was carried given how it weakened article 1, not to mention its overtly racist subtext.

It is not an express claim on territory as it was prior to 1998 where the State claimed to have full legal jurisdiction over the area called Northern Ireland. But by affording rights and entitlements, to anyone born in the territory of NI, to full Irish citizenship, in my view amounts to an implicit territorial claim. In other words, in the eyes of the Irish constitution, NI is not foreign territory.

That may well be your view but is has no basis in law.

In fact, the Irish Constitution makes no provision for the existence of a territory called 'Northern Ireland'. It makes provision for existence and recognition of two jurisdictions.

There is no territory called 'Northern Ireland'. There is the UK and there is Ireland. Northern Ireland is part of the UK. That's the constitutional and legal position in both the UK and Ireland.

The existence and recognition of the authority of British jurisdiction in Ireland, in Irish law, only came into being in the British-Irish Agreement Act, 1999, following the GFA. This is distinct from the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, which is British law bestowed on the Irish people.
Following the establishment of the 26 county Republic and Bunreacht na hEireann, there was no legal recognition of the Northern Irish state. Politically, it was a different matter, but legally, Northern Ireland did not exist, nor the British government have any lawful jurisdiction in Ireland, under Irish law.

Indeed, in 1990 Chief Justice Finlay said that a United Ireland was a “Constitutional Imperative” but;

In 1925 we accepted the Boundary Agreement.

In 1955 when we joined the UN we accepted all international borders as they then stood.

In 1973 when we joined the EEC we accepted all international borders within the EEC as they then stood.

Were all of those things unconstitutional? Where were the Nationalists bringing cases to the Supreme Court? Too busy murdering children?

Yes, It is an acknowledgement of two separate jurisdictions, without splitting hairs, yes, two separate states, but I have already acknowledged that.

Okay, so you accept that people who live in Northern Ireland live in a foreign country. Finally!

 

[WolfeTone]

Okay, so you accept that people who live in Northern Ireland live in a foreign country.

Not at all! If tomorrow the whole of Ireland was to revert to being under British rule I would never consider myself as living in a foreign country but rather, governed by a foreign state.
It stands to my reasoning therefore that I could never consider an Irish person from NI as living in a foreign country. They live in Ireland, I live in Ireland, one nation, one country.
I accept that my fellow country men and women in NI are governed by a foreign State. But nation States come and go, nations of people are much more resilient and enduring.

 

[Leo]

I'm simply of the view that it does not constitute a foreign interference by virtue of the rights, entitlements and recognition bestowed by the Constitution on Irish people residing in NI.

I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse at this point. You seem to accept that NI is a foreign state. The constitution allows people born in the north the right to consider themselves members of the Irish nation, which is purely conceptual. It does not give them any rights or entitlements to participate in the political system or governance of the state.

 

[WolfeTone]

You seem to accept that NI is a foreign state.

It is a separate State governed by a foreign State. To me, it is not foreign by virtue of the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, its islands and its seas.

The constitution allows people born in the north the right to consider themselves members of the Irish nation, which is purely conceptual.

The constitution allows people born on the island of Ireland, in its entirity, to consider themselves as members of the Irish nation. It does not distinguish between north and south.

The Nation is conceptual, as is the State itself. Neither existing anywhere other than where written into law on a piece of paper.

It does not give them any rights or entitlements to participate in the political system or governance of the state.

I never said it did! I said that NI members of constituted All-Ireland Green Party expressing opinions, one way or other, on that parties participation in a PFG with FF/FG did not amount to a foreign interference into the electoral processes of this country.

But seeing as you bring the matter up, Gerry Adams, from Belfast, elected as TD.
Austin Currie, from Tyrone, elected as TD and served as Minister of State.
Mary McAleese, from Belfast, elected as President of Ireland.
John Robb, Séamus Mallon, Bríd Rogers, Gordon Wilson, all from NI and all nominated by former Taoisigh as Senators to the Irish Parliament.

This would appear to be participation in the political system?

 

[Purple]

The Nation is conceptual, as is the State itself. Neither existing anywhere other than where written into law on a piece of paper.

No, the State exists in law, the Nation exists only as a concept and is not written into law.

 

[WolfeTone]

No, the State exists in law, the Nation exists only as a concept and is not written into law.

It is written into the Constitution. It is there, in black and white.

 

[Leo]

To me, it is not foreign by virtue of the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, its islands and its seas.

So it's there and it's real, but only in your head!

 

[Purple]

It is written into the Constitution. It is there, in black and white.

The Constitution is not a law, it is a document from which laws are framed. Within the constitution the concept of nationhood is aspirational and ill defined. If it were otherwise our laws would be different. You wanting it to be otherwise doesn't make it so, no matter how much you would like it to be so.

 

[Purple]

John Robb, Séamus Mallon, Bríd Rogers, Gordon Wilson, all from NI and all nominated by former Taoisigh as Senators to the Irish Parliament.

Most of them nominated by Charlie Haughey. Wasn't he quite visionary? He may have done the State some service.

 

[WolfeTone]

The Constitution is not a law

You are kidding me right? It is not statute, or it is does not derive from common law, but it is fundamental law.
If the Constitution says the name of the State is Ireland, then all statute following from that must adhere to that - that is the law.

Within the constitution the concept of nationhood is aspirational and ill defined.

I agree, it is ill-defined or at least insufficiently defined. Therefore it is up to legislature to legislate and the courts to interpret the limitations, if any, of who or what is ' The Nation' and 'The State'.

The 'Irish Nationality and citizenship' Acts, 1956 to 2004, go someway to determining that.
In all of this, what Art 1, 2 & 3 do now is remove the authority of the State to enact and administer laws in the territory of NI and instead bestows such a entitlement to all of the people born (save 27th amendment) to determine the political and economic future in whatever form they choose. Currently, that is in the form of two separate States, one governed by a foreign State.
In no way shape or form does it make any Irish person from NI a foreign person, or make NI a foreign country.
And given the enactments of statute law like the 1956 Act, or the British-Irish Act 1999, and the nomination and participation of Irish citizens from NI in Irish political and parliamentary affairs, it is my view that members of Green Party from NI expressing their views on the proposed PFG does not amount to foreign interference.
I think I am on sound footing here, politically and legally.

 

[Purple]

I'm getting dizzy going around in circles. I'm out.

 

[WolfeTone]

Sorry, we have moved here.

If you or your parent were born on the island of Ireland before 2005, you are an Irish citizen. If not your right to Irish citizenship is subject to the provisions of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 1956 and associated regulations.

Yes, I get all that, but is anyone actually questioning the nationality of these Green Party members?
Is it simply because they reside in NI that some have a question about their nationality.

You don't have to be an Irish citizen to become a member of most political parties here. It's quite possible, in a state where 1 in 6 are not born here, that most political parties have members who are not Irish.
Similarly, even if you are Irish and a member of say, FF, and you live in Liverpool, you hardly lose your membership rights in FF, do you?
Now that I think about it, FF does have members residing in NI.
Are these members views excluded from the discussion on PFG?
Hardly worth being a member then!

Citizenship in itself is not a justification for meddling

Is that what it is? Irish citizens, in Ireland, members of an Irish political party, expressing views on a PFG for Ireland, - meddling? I don't think so.

In 2006 Russia granted citizenship to various Abkhazians and South Ossetians in Georgia, thereby creating a 'Russian' population to 'protect' and thereby justify the subsequent Russian incursion into Georgia. Russia's annexation of the Crimea was similarly justified

Without wanting to open that hornets nest, I assume the granting of Russian citizenship was in tandem with said population actually identifying as Russian in the first instance?

It's no different than the Turkish president asking Turks in Germany to boycott the CDU in Germany's 2017 election.

Or Donald Trump giving his support to Boris Johnson as PM
Or Barack Obama calling for a Remain vote in Brexit
Or Enda Kenny travelling to UK calling for a Remain vote.
Bill Clinton meddling in Irish peace negotiations.
This stuff is as old as the hills, sure even De Valera spent 18 months or so canvassing across the USA begging for foreign interference in our affairs.

There would be an issue if what was occurring in the Green Party was not open and transparent. But it is open, we can all see what is going on, so if FF or FG have any reservations it is within their remit to walk away.
That would appear not to be the case. It is not an issue

 

[WolfeTone]

I'm getting dizzy going around in circles. I'm out.

We will let it rest so.

 

[WolfeTone]

I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse at this point.

So it's there and it's real, but only in your head!

You have a poor habit of trying to hurl abuse or demean others when you have lost an argument.

Bunreacht na hÉireann

Articles 1-3 The Nation
Articles 4-11 The State

You are trying to peddle some stuff that The Nation is conceptual, but The State isn't.

 

[Purple]

You have a poor habit of trying to hurl abuse or demean others when you have lost an argument.

Bunreacht na hÉireann

Articles 1-3 The Nation
Articles 4-11 The State

You are trying to peddle some stuff that The Nation is conceptual, but The State isn't.

Pot, Kettle, Black?

Article 1;
The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

By that definition the "Nation" is the area under the jurisdiction of our sovereign government. Oops!

 

[Sunny]

I'm getting dizzy going around in circles. I'm out.

Pot, Kettle, Black?

Article 1;
The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

By that definition the "Nation" is the area under the jurisdiction of our sovereign government. Oops!

You lasted a hour!