The Lisbon vote

[ubiquitous]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

This article from indymedia makes very interesting reading.

Libertas: US Military Contractors against the EU

Given their record, I would be very reluctant to believe anything I read on indymedia, at least unless and until I read it in a more credible media source.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

You know as well as I that the EU political elite are pushing their project through across Europe without popular support; this project would be rejected by many countries if the people weren't denied a say. How can democrats stand over this con?

This debate is getting a bit repetitive. There is no doubt whatsoever that this Treaty would not pass 27 referenda, indeed it mightn't pass any of them.

There is no doubt that the Political Elite know this and hence are ducking referenda wherever possible. However, I do not subscribe to the populist view that the PE are a faceless self serving inner circle - this is not the Soviet Union. The complex but largely administrative workings of the LT are precisely what we should trust our democratically elected PE to sort out for themselves.

Am I a democrat? Yes if you mean parliamentary style politicians elected by universal adult suffrage with mandates to govern for periods of 4 or 5 years, without further recourse to the "people". No if you mean we should all have an internet voting button to decide by majority vote or indeed 27 majority votes on every political decision.

 

[michaelm]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Am I a democrat? Yes if you mean parliamentary style politicians elected by universal adult suffrage with mandates to govern for periods of 4 or 5 years, without further recourse to the "people".

Anything else would be impractical however a mandate to govern is non-transferable; It is not acceptable to pass decision making to a 3rd party, or at least not without specific sanction from the people.

 

[noname]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

can someone confirm/correct for me,

....If Lisbon is passed, Irelands voice will be diluted. that instead of being one member one vote (as I understand it is now), the "fairer" Europe would be bassed on % of EU population. So Ireland would have 0.8 of a say on European Matters & that Germany France, UK, & Spain (combined) would have over 50% of a say?

I could very well be wrong (that's why I'm asking) if I am right I am voting NO, it might be Fairer for Europe, but I want what's best for Ireland, I don't want Poland, Romania, Slovakia (to name just 3) to have a louder voice than ours.

stats taken from- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Union

 

[ajapale]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Given their record, I would be very reluctant to believe anything I read on indymedia, at least unless and until I read it in a more credible media source.

I give indymedia just about the same credibility as most the stuff I read here on Letting Off Steam !

This is what indymedia has to say about Libertas and people associated with it.

What's particularly interesting about this is that Ulick McEvaddy is the CEO of Omega Air, a US defence contractor (they supply cargo planes and inflight refuelling services to the US military).

Declan Ganley, president of Libertas, also happens to be president of Rivada Networks, a US defence contractor (they supply emergency communications networks to the US intelligence community).

 

[redstar]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I give indymedia just about the same credibility as most the stuff I read here on Letting Off Steam !

This is what indymedia has to say about Libertas and people associated with it.

Whether or not indymedia are credible, their description of the occupations of the two Libertas-associated guys is easily checked - its either right or wrong ?

 

[Megan]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Also by abstaining you are indirectly voting yes.

What about all the 3rd level students who are off on their J1 Visas around the 9th June ( I know 20 students who fly out that date) and won't get to vote. Will they be counted as having abstaining? Couldn't the date have being set a little earlier so that young people get a chance to use their vote.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I give indymedia just about the same credibility as most the stuff I read here on Letting Off Steam !

This is what indymedia has to say about Libertas and people associated with it.

What's particularly interesting about this is that Ulick McEvaddy is the CEO of Omega Air, a US defence contractor (they supply cargo planes and inflight refuelling services to the US military).

Declan Ganley, president of Libertas, also happens to be president of Rivada Networks, a US defence contractor (they supply emergency communications networks to the US intelligence community).

...and Bill Gates is the founder of Microsoft who presumably supply software products to the US military.

...and Neville Isdell is the chief executive officer of The Coca-Cola Company who presumably supply refreshment drinks to the US military.

...and....

...and...

...and...

To be frank, I really wonder at this sort of conspiracy theory smear that indymedia and their likes seem to specialise in.

One day they tell us that the guys who support the EU and the Lisbon Treaty cannot be trusted as they have a vested interest in maintaining a military empire.

The next day they tell us that the guys who oppose the EU and the Lisbon Treaty cannot be trusted as they have a vested interest in maintaining a military empire.

 

[michaelm]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

. . the occupations of the two Libertas-associated guys is easily checked - its either right or wrong ?

Yes, right or wrong, and irrelevant.

What about all the 3rd level students who are off on their J1 Visas around the 9th June ( I know 20 students who fly out that date) and won't get to vote. Will they be counted as having abstaining? Couldn't the date have being set a little earlier so that young people get a chance to use their vote.

Those who would be absent on the day had the option for a postal vote however there was only short notice given ahead of the deadline (which has now passed) for registering.

 

[redstar]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Yes, right or wrong, and irrelevant.

How do you know it is irrelevant ?

I think its important to understand what has motivated two very senior corporate officials to lead one of the main NO campaign groups, especially when all the main business groups support the Lisbon Treaty.

What is their 'vested interest' in opposing the treaty ?

 

[michaelm]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

The NO camp are an eclectic mix or disparate groups with little in common except their opposition to this treaty. Some people will be distracted by demonising propaganda aimed at the NO side. What's relevant is what's in the treaty and how that impacts Ireland's interests and Irish citizens.

 

[diarmuidc]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

The NO camp are an eclectic mix or disparate groups with little in common except their opposition to this treaty.

Eclectic? I can think of a few more choice words. Here are the groups that are supporting the NO campagin
Sinn Fein
Socalists Workers Party
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
Libertas

Some of the claims from the NO side have gone beyond misleading to pure lying (tax harmonisation, abortion, gay marriage etc). I can't believe some people are falling for it.

 

[television]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

i am not left wing hippy or religious nut and i am voting no. there are good reasons for voting no. creeping privitisation of public services for one.

 

[GeneralZod]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

How will voting no to Lisbon make privatisation of public services any less likely?

According to this Referendum Commission page the EU already has competence under existing unreformed treaties in the areas most relevant to achieving creeping privatisation if that is the objective of EU governments.

 

[Purple]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

i am not left wing hippy or religious nut and i am voting no. there are good reasons for voting no. creeping privitisation of public services for one.

Do you really think that socialist Europe will push for privatisation of public services? (Hint; the axis of the EU runs between France and Germany and they are two of the most socialised countries in the world when it comes to public services).

 

[Ceist Beag]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Most of the No camp arguments are based on adversarial scenarios where they say our weight will be diminshed if this treaty is passed but surely anyone in partnership knows that any agreement will be unsuccessful unless all parties are satisfied with the agreement so why portray scenarios where little old Ireland will be bullied if we pass this treaty? It's all just scaremongering as far as I'm concerned - we've been in the EU long enough now to see that it has worked well for us and we haven't exactly been bullied around by our fellow partners!

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

. there are good reasons for voting no. creeping privitisation of public services for one.

If this is true, I would regard it as a very good reason to vote yes. I'm sure that train users to/from the Munster region would agree.

I haven't decided yet how to vote, although my natural instincts are to vote Yes. Still when I hear Micheal Martin on the RTE news "promising" that the EU is happy to commit economic suicide to "combat climate change", I wonder am I mad to vote Yes.

 

[michaelm]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Some of the claims from the NO side have gone beyond misleading to pure lying (tax harmonisation, abortion, gay marriage etc). I can't believe some people are falling for it.

Yeah, those crazy naysayers, like before Nice they were making wild claims about, amongst other things, a flood of immigrants and the flight of manufacturing jobs.

i am not left wing hippy or religious nut and i am voting no.

Ditto. I'm voting no despite my dislike for many on the NO side. I'm focusing on the treaty. To vote yes because of who's calling for a No is blinkered.

. . they say our weight will be diminshed if this treaty is passed . .

Well, that's an indisputable fact. There is no good reason to hand over so many more policy areas to Brussels to be subject to QMV, and no good reason to dilute or current voting strength. And if the Yes camp think that the 'Charter of Fundamental Rights' is such a prize then there's no good reason why they can't, following a No to Lisbon, put it into Irish law where it can be interpreted by the Irish courts rather than the EU court.

 

[Purple]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Yeah, those crazy naysayers, like before Nice they were making wild claims about, amongst other things, a flood of immigrants and the flight of manufacturing jobs.

Exactly. There was a big increase in migrant workers. This was a massively positive thing from a social and economic perspective. There was no flood of immigrants.
The other red herring was that Nice (or any other EU treaty) would lead to a flight of manufacturing jobs. There is absolutely no link between the two.

 

[Ceist Beag]

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

no good reason to dilute or current voting strength

What are you so afraid of michaelm? The No side harp on about losing our commissioner - what they forget to mention is that EVERY SINGLE country is losing a their commissioner for 5 out of every 15 years, not just us - so Germany, France and so on are going to have the exact same as us. As I said, Europe has been good for us since we joined - what evidence have you to suggest that suddenly it will be to our detriment? Why this paranoia that countries will gang up on little old Ireland - and also what evidence have you to suggest that our (already very small) current voting strength could do anything to prevent such a paranoid scenario in the current system if it were to happen? I find it amusing this fear people have that Lisbon is a treaty to get Ireland!!